<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #800080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rbrekne@broadpark.no = href="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">Richard Brekne</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> June 09, 2001 1:47 = AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: soundboards = improving with age? or what else?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>    = (snip)</FONT> <DIV dir=ltr></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr>Grin... I know you dont aggree Del... and hey.. thats = cool. Its one thing to suppose this, to observe that.. to hypothosize, reason, = conport, and constertate.. to agree or disagree...  its another thing = entirely to declare "I have the answer"</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>To the best of my = recollection, I have never claimed to "have the answer." After many years of research, experimentation and trial and error, I do have some answers. You are, = of course, quite free to either accept them or not. </FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>    = (snip)</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr>Grin.. Del I have had a lot of such reading  lying = around for some years now.. some read some left to read some to = re.read.  The right track is a questioning one, in my mind. It is wise not to close = oneself completely off from avenues of investigation... no matter how = seemingly unlikely they may be..until there is real proof that they are = useless.</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>I am one of the most = questioning people around, have been for some time. As to whether I am wise or not = is probably open to debate. But I chose to not waste my time on things = that have no possibility of either improving my work (specifically) or the piano = (generally).</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>    = (snip)</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr>Grin... Del you shoulda been a politician.  As you = have answered your own question in nearly the same breath that you posed = it... I will say no more. </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>No, Richard, politicians = can rarely back up what they say. I generally can--even if you choose to twist it = around and try to confuse things. To wit:</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>    (snip)</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>Lets see first you tell him the old = panel will sound as good as the new... then you tell him it wont after = all...Lets. see.... sort this out.. Oh yea.. there was this difference between rib = crowned and compression crowned... but WAIT... the old board was compression = crowned wayyyy back when... it shoulda then suffered badly by compression set = due to these expansion forces collapsing..... how can that sound the same as = a new board that hasnt been subjected to this... even with rib supports... = but then we got that covered too dont we ??  Its all a matter of stiffness = and mass... and nothing else. And the only thing that affects these is = static load stresses... Heck if we could reconfigure a tomatoe to be as stiff..... = grin... </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>More on this = below.</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>    = (snip)</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr>Look Del... your explanation is as good as = anyones...and better then most in my book. Just dont try selling it as the gospel cause it = is obvious that you havent got all ends completely covered. It remains a hypothosis. </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <HR dir=ltr> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Richard, your 'grin' just = doesn't make it anymore. I think its gotten a bit worn out from overuse. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>You misunderstand me and my = motives for participating on this list. I am not trying to sell anything as gospel. = I don't really care if you accept or reject any or all of what I contribute to pianotech. I've simply bumbled around for a few years picking up bits = and pieces of knowledge along the way. I was helped along that way by some pretty remarkable men who, through PTG, freely shared much of their own = hard-earned knowledge with me. I believe now I have a responsibility to do the same. = And you're right about one thing in your little attack--I haven't got all = ends completely covered. I doubt that I ever will. I've also never claimed = that I do. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>No offence meant, Richard, = but in this case your attack on my technical credibility is itself a bit beyond = credibility. So what if my response to Mr Frankson is hypothesis? It's a = pretty solid hypothesis. And, like it or not the world--including the = scientific world--is filled with working hypotheses that are used as a technical = foundation to build many wonderful working products. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>So, as someone much wiser = than I once said, "come let us reason together..." </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>This little flap all started = when I responded to a post from Eric Frankson in which he made a connection = between the technology used to make violin soundboards and that used to make piano soundboards and you took offense, to quote:</FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2><BR></FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2>   "You = show us...the studies that conclusively show that there are no significant changes in = the way sound and wood inter-relate as a result of wood ageing, or varnishing = for that matter. ...Until you can do this...you reside in exactly the same place = as those who declare other unsubstantiated ideas to be fact...No offence meant = Del...but really...You want to put an end to all the "mystikk" surrounding this = and other such subject matter...then you need to stop blowing your own magic smoke = first." </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>And then you = wrote:</FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2><BR></FONT><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>   "And for the last time... nobody is comparing Violins directly to = pianos..."</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>So, last things first. = Actually, Mr Frankson did compare the violin to the piano, as he acknowledged at = the close of his post. That was, after all, the intent of his post. He = related some ancient violin making practices and various studies of those = practices with those of the modern piano soundboard. Sorry, but I'd say I was well = justified in making the assumption that "he was comparing violins directly to = pianos...." Now, having said that, since I was responding to Mr Frankson, if my = comments were offensive in any way and if anyone has the right to take = issue with them, Mr Frankson does. If he was in any way offended by my = remarks, he can let me know and I will owe him an apology. But he was comparing violins = to pianos. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Now, you accuse me of = "blowing [my] own magic smoke." Just what magic smoke is it I'm supposed to be = blowing? I said, "Age has nothing to do with the performance of a piano soundboard. = At least not age by itself." A fairly simple statement, I thought. I = suppose you're objecting to my use of the word <EM>nothing</EM> out there all by = itself, and possibly that was overly strong. Perhaps you would have preferred, = "The age of the wood used to make a piano soundboard panel has nothing <EM>of = consequence </EM>to do with the performance of a piano soundboard...." Or, how = about, "There is no existing proof nor, based on the best current technology, is = there any reasonable cause to believe, that the age of the wood used to make = up a piano soundboard has any measurable or audible effect on the performance = of the piano soundboard...." It's a lot more words to say basically the same thing.</FONT></P><FONT color=#800080 size=2> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Your critique of my = comments go on at some length but to me, at least, they only demonstrate that you don't = really understand the differences in operating principle between a = compression-crowned piano soundboard and a rib-crowned piano soundboard. Or, if you do = understand them, that you are unwilling to stretch that understanding and apply it = to a new situation. Surely, though, your own lack of understanding is not = valid justification for your little attack on my credibility, is it? = </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr>Now, to be fair, I must admit that the available literature = doesn't really explore these differences. It's not an area that has received = much attention over the years. This is one reason why I began my own studies, publishing much of what I was learning along the way. = It is also, of course, why I suggested that you go back and study some of = the available literature;. I know there's virtually nothing in there on the = subject. (A bit nasty, that--sorry.) I'm one of the few who has published = anything at all comparing the two types of soundboard systems. And you obviously don't = like what I have to say on the subject.</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>You write, "You show us, = refer us to, quote, or in some other sense document the studies that conclusively = show that there are no significant changes in the way sound and wood inter-relate = as the result of wood ageing, or varnishing for that matter." Well, what kind = of documentation will be good enough for you? To the best of my knowledge = there have been no studies directly structured to determine the acoustical = effect of aging wood for a century or two prior to laying it up into a piano = soundboard panel. So, you win. Or do you? If we can't find a conclusive study, = perhaps we can still be allowed to draw some reasonable conclusions based on = all the other work that has been done. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>It is known, for = example, that it takes a relatively substantial change in either a soundboard's mass or = its stiffness characteristic to make an audible change in its acoustic tone = quality. </FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2>If you're unwilling to accept my = word for that, consider the amount of cellular damage that takes place in the = upper tenor/treble region of the soundboard panel in a compression-crowned = soundboard assembly before the resultant decrease in sustain time becomes a = problem. And, if you're unwilling to accept that, then read through Klaus Wogram's = article, <EM>The Strings and the Soundboard</EM>, in the Five Lectures book. = Especially the part on the influence of ribbing. He makes some pretty radical = changes to the rib structure with only nominal changes to soundboard impedance. My = own experience is quite similar. </FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Or we = can make--it's been done--measurements of soundboard's structural = changes as it goes through various climate changes while simultaneously = monitoring the piano's acoustic tone performance. By comparing the two over time = we can get a fair idea of how the soundboard responds acoustically to differing = stress conditions over that period of time. And they don't change much at all = except in extreme cases. </FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Soundboards, it = seems, are acoustically rather stable structures.</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>So, while that "conclusive" = study you're demanding hasn't yet been done--probably never will be--it is known that = any changes--whether chemical or structural in nature--that take place in = unstressed wood over the years, even as long as a century or two, are = exceedingly slight. That, coupled with the knowledge that it takes relatively = substantial changes to alter the tone performance of the piano soundboard audibly, = enables me to reasonably say that the age of the wood used in making up a soundboard panel has no effect on the tone performance of the piano. In = summary, Richard, I believe my statement to be substantially accurate, based on = known facts, and not "magic smoke" at all. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Finally, about the effect of = varnish on the soundboard...I can only refer to the studies I have done myself and = have summarized several times on Pianotech. I don't know of any others. As = you have apparently missed these discussions you might want to check = the archives, the information should be in there someplace. </FONT></P><FONT = color=#800080 size=2> <P dir=ltr>So, whether you like them or not, I think I'll stand by the = statements I made in my response to Mr Frankson's post. If it will make = you feel any better, I'll modify the one sentence to read as I put it above, "The = age of the wood used to make a piano soundboard panel has nothing <EM>of = consequence </EM>to do with the performance of a piano soundboard...." That is an = accurate statement and is adequately backed up by current soundboard technology. = So is my comment about soundboard finishes. </FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>And, yes, the same = technology that enables me to give these answers to Mr Frankson's question without the = conclusive study you so desire fully explains the renewed performance of Andre's old = wood/new rib soundboard in his Bechstein, no matter how you try to confuse the issue.</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Obviously, I have offended = your sense of truth, justice and general stability in the universe somewhere = along the line. I really don't know what I did to warrant such an antagonistic = response from you over this issue, but the facts are still the facts and violins = are still violins and pianos are still pianos and violins are not yet = pianos. The age of wood, taken by itself, is still not a factor <EM>of consequence = </EM>in the performance of a piano soundboard. Nor, within reasonable limits, is = the type of finish. Or, for that matter, is the complete lack of any = finish. My response to Mr Frankson was, and remains, a substantially accurate one. = Not a perfect one, perhaps, but a reasonable one. And if that still remains a = problem for your rather selective sense of technical accuracy, you'll just have = to live with it. Just as I must with your attack against my technical credibility.</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Regards,</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Del</FONT></P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </P> <P dir=ltr><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </P></BODY></HTML>