<html> <body> Very good point.  My service bill is carbon copy with the original going to the customer.  I record how many cents off-pitch the piano is (built in is the pitch-raise charge which is triggered by this measurement).  I also record temperature and relative humidity at the time of tuning.  The temperature note mentions that maintaining even temperature is good for stability and warns against afternoon sun exposure and heating ducts.  The humidity portion warns against damaging low or high humidity and that humidity cycling greatly affects tuning stability.  I also note minor service done as well as other observations about voicing and regulation or any other problems that may be developing that will need specific service in the future, it sells work.  This is hole punched and goes into the customer's service record.  I'm not cheap and if they want cheap they will go elsewhere. Another plus, if they complain about the piano being out of tune and you go and find very different climate conditions you have a cause to point to. Andrew At 08:27 PM 3/9/2004 -0500, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I would have honestly told your customer that my experience is that piano instructors typically know very little about pianos, usually even less than a piano salesman. I have years of experience in installing scores of these systems and can produce documented evidence of the difference they make in stopping radical pitch swings. This is why it is always a good idea to record how far off pitch the piano is on your customers record. If I have tuned the piano more than once in the past I can show them how far off pitch it was each time, usually 20+ sharp in the summer followed by 20- in the winter.   It is the instructor who doesnt know what he is talking about and that is the truth. Tell your customer that the instructor may be a very good piano teacher, but he does not have anything close to your experience or knowledge on the proper care of pianos. That is the truth and you should not feel bad at all about saying it. Then emotionally disconnect yourself so that you can walk away from the sale. It is his pianos tuning stability/longevity that is at stake here, not your reputation. If he refuses the sale, no problem. Next time you are out to tune show him how far off his pitch is.   Damp Chaser also used to have letters from all the piano manufacturers recommending the use of their systems. You might get a copy of those.   If you are only making the cost of one tuning on an installation you need to radically alter your price. I gross about 3-4 tunings per sale/installation. Here is what you need to make:   Profit on the system (40%-50% margin) Sales commission for the time you spent talking to them to sell it (20-30% of total cost) Fee for followup time spent answering questions ($25 per phone call, figure one or two calls on an average sale) Two hour service call for installation (reducing time to under one hour will pay you a bonus here)   You figure the total. Then make that your non-negotiable price (but dont itemize for the customer. Just tell them that is the installed price). For a few hundred dollars you are installing a system that will protect their investment of thousands of dollars, plus make it sound nicer between tunings. It is a great deal for them. I dont usually sell a system the first time I present it, but after one or two more tunings where I show them the continued pattern of wildly deviating pitch I can often close the sale. Especially in churches that dont maintain consistent temperatures. They usually know they are being hard on the piano. And I emphasize how hard and damaging it is on their fine musical instrument to be in such an environment.  I also relay my experience of scores of churches with the system vs. those without and what a huge difference they make.     Dean   Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 Terre Haute IN  47802   -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]On Behalf Of Dave Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:28 PM To: Pianotech Subject: Piano Humidity Control System bashing   I've asked a couple of you privately for advice, but would like a wider opinion from this list.    I left a DC brochure with a customer with a new Kawai Grand.    I was there for the first tuning in late Oct and their house was open, the humidity was high,  and the owner seemed very tuning-concious.  I explained the main effect would be tuning stability, but general piano health would be better, with more stable humidity and lower humidity also.  (Homes here with AC on can still vary from 50-70% humidity, in my experience, depending on outside temp and humidity, and AC system size and type.  Many cool days when people open their windows have humidity of 80% and up to 100% sometimes.  Technicians here normally install the heater bars and humidistats, but no humidifiers.)   When I followed up for DC install and /or 6 month tuning, he had talked to their piano teacher, who has a studio in Cape Coral.  Was told that DC was a bad idea for a nice piano, and they "we are finding that they do more harm than good."  "Hot spots, etc,   better to not use one unless you have things sticking etc."   This is a reputatable teacher who I believe is operating under either old infomation, false information, or no information.  Lots of techs, at least in this neck of the woods used to install the heater bars without humidistats, and maybe that is the source of his  belief.    I told my customer that I believed his teacher was misinformed, and that I would talk to him.  Set up the tuning appt for the customer for May..  He is honestly convinced that he might be risking his piano by installing a system.    I feel badly for two reasons.  First, my judgement is in doubt.  Second, the customer possibly believes that I am just trying to sell him something to line my own pockets.  I did tell him that I only make about the cost of one tuning when I install the system.   And that he would likely need tuning less often with the system.    So over a period of time, I actually may lose income.     I am a believer in the systems, as long as they are properly installed with humidistats. Have one in my own Yamaha grand piano and it has made an incredible difference in tuning stability.  But I have also found in the past that debating with someone who already has made up his mind is neither fun nor fruitful.   What do you think.  What would you do?   Dave Smith SW FL</blockquote></body> </html>