<DIV>Thank you guys so much for the valuable insights you have given me.  They are my daily devotions!  I'll be printing them out and filing them.  Thanks again!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Matthew<BR><BR><B><I>Alan <tune4u@earthlink.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=GENERATOR> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Tune it so the 10th (F3-A4) beats just noticeably faster than the F3-A3 third. If I am aural tuning I tune to personally tune with fast beating intervals (see Potter, Coleman, etc.) BUT it is very handy to be able to tune and recognize good 5ths and 4ths in your temperament to use as checks--including a check of your temperament octave, which is usually 4:2 or close to it. Tune the A3-E4 and D4-A4 5ths then listen to the fourths on E4 and D4, that will tell you immediately if your octave is good. Also, if you tune A4 then A3, then F3 (about 7 bps "Min-i-tonk-a, Min-i-tonk-a, Min-i-tonk-a, ...." ), then the F3-F4 octave (you with me?) then see if you can tune C#4 so that the beat rate progression of F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4, F4-A4 is smooth and even, then you can be certain you have a temperament 10th (F3-A4) that will work -- and 5 "anchor" notes to test your intervals against as you tune.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Another way is to use ghost tones. If you have a pretty quiet tuning environment, this will give you dead-on accurate 4:2s, 6:3s, etc. Of course, whether or not you WANT precise intervals is a matter of taste AND what the piano is trying to tell you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>If you're interested, here's a longish post on ghost tuning that I put up a couple of years ago.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial><A href="https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2002-September/118743.html">https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2002-September/118743.html</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>(Just looked at that, and the archive formatting is kinda confusing. I'll attach the orginal Word  document to this post. It's good stuff to know about ...)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Have fun, you'll get it ... then you'll wonder why you ever had a problem with it!</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Alan R. Barnard</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Salem, MO</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Matthew Todd [mailto:pianotech88@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:54 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Octave Tuning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Now, how exactly do you tune the fourth partial of the lower octave note to the second partial of the upper octave note?  I have heard that some techs just tune the octave 1/2 a beat wide, and leave it at that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you can call me stupid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Matthew<BR><BR><B><I>Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Hi Mathew,<BR><BR>Current thought is that a unison is the only "pure" item in tuning. An<BR>Octave can only be "beat free" at one partial at a time. Do an archive<BR>search for octaves and you will get loads of hits.<BR><BR>narrowest possible octave 2:1; a3 to a4 beatless at a4<BR>wider 4:2; a3 to a4 beatless at a5<BR>wider 6:3; a3 to a4 beatless at e6<BR><BR>It is common to tune a3 to a4 somewhere between 4:2 and 6:3--just to make<BR>the task a little more difficult. I believe this is what Virgil Smith does<BR>when he attempts to tune the "whole sound" of the octave. I.E. his 4:2<BR>beats at a rate which may "cancel" the beat of the 6:3. How long such a<BR>"balance" will last is dependant on nothing in the enviroment changing,<BR>including barometric pressure.<BR><BR>More on unisons:<BR><BR>We also have to deal with the "coupled" motion of piano strings. The bridge<BR>is a f! lexible termination. Some studies have suggested that a one hertz<BR>difference in two strings will result in zero beating heard. One hertz at<BR>A4 is approximately 4 cents--a huge number for a unison to be "out". There<BR>is also some suggestion that a truely "pure" unison gives the piano a<BR>rather "dead" sound with poor sustain.<BR><BR>Inharmonicity:<BR><BR>There is no doubt that the impedance mismatch between the strings, bridge<BR>and soundboard produces a measureable effect on the width of octaves. In<BR>some cases this "para inharmoncity" can be a negative number.<BR>Translation--the narrowest octave would be smaller than a "theorectical" 2:1.<BR><BR>Setting Temperament:<BR><BR>I'd suggest you use one of the "self correcting" temperments such as the<BR>Baldassin-Sanderson. Have a look here:<BR><BR>http://www.accu-tuner.com/SATIIImanual/apf.html <BR><BR>At 07:42 PM 21/09/2004 -0700, you wrote:<BR>> need some help from all of you. Is it true that the two things that<BR>&g! t;remain pure in a piano when we tune is unisons and octaves? And if we do<BR>>that, the octave will have a slight beat to it, right? I think I missed<BR>>something. You guys are great! Thanks!!<BR>>Matthew <BR>>__________________________________________________<BR>>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <BR>>http://mail.yahoo.com <BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.<BR><BR>mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/<BR><BR>3004 Grant Rd.<BR>REGINA, SK<BR>S4S 5G7<BR>306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://vote.yahoo.com/">vote.yahoo.com</A> - Register online to vote today!</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><FONT size=2>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).<BR>Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 09/10/2004<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></P><BR><BR>> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=GHOST TONES IN PIANO TUNING.doc<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>http://mail.yahoo.com