<html> <body> André, Perfect - wish I could write like this...I could not agree more. Thanks very much. Horace At 12:37 PM 10/1/2004, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>On 1-okt-04, at 15:30, David Love wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>The evidence of different soundboards (and soundboards in various conditions) needing hammers of varying densities is so abundant in the piano circles that I run in that I don't even know what to say to those who are interested in this possibility except try it for yourself and see.  You wouldn't put a very hard Renner hammer designed for a Boesendorfer </blockquote> I do not agree with you... I had my first factory training at Bösendorfer in Wien, and the emphasis on my training there was voicing. Their hammers are not "very hard", they are kind of medium hard, just like most Renner hammers. The Bösendorfer sound is not based on a rock hard hammer, as most European technicians know, but it is a regular Renner hammer which they turn into a romantic hammer "with a core". On the other hand, as far as making a 'characteristic sound', to me personally it does not matter how hard a hammer is. If it is very hard, I'll 'bang' it down to the desired level. It is only a nuisance because it takes more muscle and more sweat. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>on a piano that would sound best with a Ronsen soft Bacon felt hammer-- </blockquote> Bösendorfer uses Renner hammers and have done so for a very long time. According to me, they have never bought Ronsen hammers nor Bacon felt hammers. They used to buy Weickert felt in the past, switched over to VFG felt because the Weickert Filz factory was not able to produce during the f!@!@$%^&* communist period and nothing more reasonable was available, and immediately switched again to Wurzen when that 'right felt' was available again in the early nineties, like most European piano factories and like Yamaha (for their concert grand, the CFIII-S). <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>and there are many such examples out there.  A lengthy explanation as to why that might be is more than I am prepared to get into at this point but in as much as new soundboards require different types of hammers (think Yamaha hammers on a NY Steinway or vice versa) so will old ones.  </blockquote> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>An old ugly Yamaha that probably sounded ok with a Yamaha hammer when it was new, may very well sound better with a softer Wurzen hammer </blockquote> Wurzen hammers are not particularly soft David. It depends on the buyer who orders the hammers. Schimmel for instance wants rock hard hammers because they have a machine to pre-voice their hammers. If anyone buys a Renner Schimmel hammer set from da Renner shelf, that person will curse his bad luck because voicing down those hammers will take hours of again muscle and rivers of sweat. 'Our' Renner hammers are not that granite hard, because we ask the Renner Company for a 'certain kind' of firmness or hardness. The older Yamaha I was writing about last night was actually an older Yamaha from the early seventies. The soundboard had not really lost any crown yet but the hammers were worn out completely, and so were the strings. If we had installed new Yamaha hammers (after restringing), it would have sounded much better but the AA Wurzens gave it a whole new quality it had never known before. A softer hammer, generally speaking, would have given it the sound of a "wet news paper". <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>now that it's older and responding differently and tends to support my point.  The evidence is at least empirical whatever the science may or may not convince you of.  While a medium hammer may give the most flexibility to go either way on many pianos, there will be cases where hammers which fall at one end of the spectrum or the other will be the better fit. </blockquote> I do not agree with you. A given soundboard has a 'certain' personality, and the personality will always be the same, except that the physical 'force' of that personality will diminish, just like with older people : their personality is intact but their physical strength has gone down over the years. When the crown of an older soundboard had lost its major power, the sound gets thinner and weaker, and with physical 'distortions', and that is what we call 'older'. The character however is still there but maybe less 'predominant' and with the shortcomings of old age like brittle bones, weaker organs, and alzheimers. There are certain aspects that could 'amplify' that weaker personality, and those aspects are for instance new strings and/or new hammers. Just amplifying that older 'personality'  actually creates the problem we, as technicians, always encounter because we just energize the voice of the old personality, but not the muscle and bone structure, so to speak. In other words : if we install a granite hard hammer on an old piano, we give it a granite like loud old voice and if we install softer hammers we hear a renewed but velvety old voice. Through that voice we hear a more, or less, amplified personality, but also the amplified weaknesses of an older body. In yet more other words : installing new hammers is just a cosmetic operation. The eye lashes maybe short or long, but unfortunately it is still very clear that this lovely old lady is ninety years old, whatever the well known possible disguises. There is however an other factor in play here : As I explained before, there are soundboards (personalities) which predominantly 'show' higher overtones. Bechstein soundboards are like that : their treble section is usually rather brilliant, where their bass section is usually 'under developed'.  In that case, when we install new hammers (may they be hard or soft) we have to use a voicing technique where we put the emphasis on getting out the lower partials as much as possible. With Steinways it is the opposite : not creating a hammer crown which causes the instrument to give more overtones is like putting a bag over the head : it sounds poorly. Then there is the choice of hammers, or actually the choice of hammer felt : Roughly speaking we have the four major hammer felts we all know : the Wurzen predominantly used by Renner (about 90%), the VFG felt predominantly used by Abel (about 90%), the Royal George felt (of late) we find on millions of Yamaha's, and the Bacon felt used primarily in the USA. All four felts are made of sheep's wool but have been fabricated in different ways, and all four have totally different characteristics, whether we like it or not. They may resemble each other because they all come from sheep's wool, but their manufacturing process is quite different. The difference is what we hear, and that difference is what we choose. What makes this difference an issue here, is that some felts are used mainly in the USA and some other felts (Royal george, Wurzen and VFG) are used all over the world. In other words: we share a common felt experience and we base our opinions and personal taste on this experience. Personal taste is something we can not really discuss, well grounded opinions are another matter and that is one of the difficulties here on this list : are we talking about personal taste or are we talking about scientifically based opinions? The four felts I mentioned all have a different characteristic, despite their common material basis. The way these felts were made determine their characteristics, and those characteristics are factual elements we can determine and classify. The way these felts sound is a totally different subject and that usually leads to misunderstanding and unnecessary friction. It is not wise to discuss 'beauty' or 'ugliness'. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As far as how long a hammer will last, unlacquered versus lacquered; the issue seems to be how much lacquer and how it is applied.  A weak stiffening solution probably doesn't do much to effect the life of the hammer.  But since lacquer gets harder and more brittle over time, a heavily lacquered hammer will not last in terms of controllability as long as an unlacquered hammer, assuming it hasn't been needled to death. </blockquote> To get down to the core of lacquered versus unlacquered is like this : a lacquered wool piano hammer has fibers which have been fused together into an almost (in varying degrees) unmovable non-elastic matter by a binding force called hammer hardener. This piano hammer consists of a wooden molding, a staple, and a mass of fibers which originally were resilient, with an elastic capacity which through the appliance of hammer hardening have clotted into an non-resilient and un-elastic wool mass we can compare with a very sober palet (all this depending of how much hardener was used). An unlacquered wool piano hammer has a natural resiliency (in varying degrees) and this elastic force we can use in the process of intonation. It is like the use of a multi colored palet (all this depending of how much pressure was used). Get this: Crystallized or more or less non-resilient matter, like a felt covered (but hardened) drum stick, creates a 'certain' non-or- less-resilient sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher overtones. The spectrum is poor because of the lack of resilience. Non-crystallized or more or less resilient matter, like a (non hardened) felt covered drum stick, creates a 'certain' more-or less-resilient sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher and lower overtones. The spectrum is rich because of the present resilience. That is literally the difference between a lacquered hammer and a non lacquered hammer, and that is a fact. Which hammer you like is not my business. André Oorebeek <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>David Love davidlovepianos@comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.o= rg</a>] On Behalf Of Richard Brekne Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:04 AM To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net; Pianotech Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered hammers ...That went to claims about soundboard condition dictating this or that kind of hammer. I dissagreed ... _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</a> </blockquote>André Oorebeek </blockquote></x-html> </blockquote></body> </html>