<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" = http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>"I think what Dan is trying to describe to you is simply that if = the "hole" wasnt there... then what would happen to the same area of wood around = that hole ? Why should that react differently, or why shouldnt it ? Think about = that as well when you drill your test piece tommorrow. :) "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keeping in mind that I am simply trying to understand and make = sense of this, my reasoning is as follows: If the hole was not there, that area = of the hole would expand and get larger, just as he indicated. AND, if the hole = is not there, then wood is there, and wood expands with increasing moisture = content, causing the area in which it resides to get bigger. BUT if there is a = hole there, then there is no wood there, and the wood around the hole will = expand, thus closing off the hole (or at least moving in that direction). So, = yes, it should react differently, because a hole reacts differently than wood, = and wood next to a hole will be able to expand/contract in a different manner = than wood next to wood. And I will think about all of that while I drill my hole. = I might even drill two holes. I might even drill several holes of different = sizes. So there!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND I will also be thinking about what a pleasure it is to interact = with other technicians on topic such as these to gain better understandings = of our work. This is the kind of thing that when we keep to ourselves in a = little cocoon, errant thoughts will remain and perhaps multiply indefinitely. = Of course I know that sometimes we don't solve a darn thing and only generate more = fodder for argument, ah, er, I mean great discussion. Thanks for all the input. = I'll report back with results!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell<BR>Piano Tuning & Service<BR>Tampa, Florida<BR><A = href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com</A></DI= V> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no" title=Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no>Richard Brekne</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 02, 2001 = 2:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: moisture in wool = or wood.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>I think what Dan is trying to describe to you is simply = that if the "hole" wasnt there... then what would happen to the same area of = wood around that hole ? Why should that react differently, or why shouldnt = it ? Think about that as well when you drill your test piece tommorrow. :) <P>In returning a bit to the starting point for this thread, it seems = we have reached a consensus that this problem about keybeds and lost motion is = probably more related to felt being affected by humidity changes then = to wood related concerns ?? <BR>  <BR>  <P>Farrell wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <STYLE></STYLE> Your position is consistent with many others. It is likely I who is hard/thick headed. I just may go out to the shop tomorrow morning = and drill me a hole in some maple and see what happens. Just does not make = sense to me.  :-)  I'll report back! Terry Farrell <BR>Piano = Tuning & Service <BR>Tampa, Florida <BR><A = href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com</A> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:DonMannino@mediaone.net" title=DonMannino@mediaone.net>Donald Mannino</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 01, = 2001 10:56 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: moisture in = wool or wood.</DIV> <FONT size=+0>Terry Farrell wrote:</FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite type="cite" cite><FONT size=+0>I have = heard/read this many times, so I suppose it is true. But, intuitively, it = makes no sense to me. If you drill a hole in a piece of wood and expose = it to high humidity, the wood will swell - and swell much more across = the grain (perpendicular to the grain direction) than with the = grain. So why doesn't the hole tend to close a bit - on the two sides of the = whole where the tangents are parallel to the wood = grain.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because the whole piece of wood swells, and the hole = becomes larger along with the piece of wood.  As I wrote in my last post, = imagine the plug of wood which used to be in the hole.  The hole = behaves the same as the plug of wood that was taken out. <P><FONT size=+0>Do the hole and rod test.   Just pick = a small piece of maple or something, soak it in water for a while,  = then drill a hole in it with a spare drill.  After drilling, put = the drill back in the hole, then dry the wood in the oven!  That drill = will be really nasty tight in the hole!  You'll have to soak the wood = again to get it out.</FONT> <P><FONT size=+0>There are some exceptions to this = behavior:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=+0>1. In some situations the surface fiber = swelling in the hole exceeds the change in shape of the wood.  Key balance = holes are examples of this, where high humidity sometimes tightens the = fit.  The wood thickness is small, and the wood fibers are large and = sometimes made of more reactive wood.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=+0>2. = Cross-laminated wood is more dimensionally stable, and the surface fibers will = again have more affect on the hole size than the dimensional changes of the wood.  This is what happens in pinblocks.</FONT> <BR><FONT = size=+0>3. If the hole was made by compression of the fibers instead of by = drilling and removing wood (like with a nail) then the grip on the nail is = tighter during humid times.  All surface fiber effect, no hole to swell.</FONT> <P><FONT size=+0>Don Mannino RPT</FONT> <BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>-- <BR>Richard Brekne <BR>RPT, N.P.T.F. <BR>Bergen, Norway <BR><A = href="mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no">mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.u= ib.no</A> <BR>  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>