<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I understand DC's contacts are rated at = 15A (about 1600+ W), so 35W is hardly a significant load.  However, I'd be = concerned about a running a dehumidifier straight off of such = a humidistat.  I bet the average electrical load for a dehumidifier is 500W running, = which would correspond to about 1500W at startup -- perhaps enough to fry the contacts.  Dunno.... Check the ratings!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The prospect of running a room = humidifier from an under-piano humidistat is appealing.  I would be cautious not to = run it opposite the dehumidifier bars, though.  A situation would arise in = which both the temperature and humidity would rise in an inverse-compensatory fashion.  At the same time, the room would get quite nice and = steamy.  ;-)  I would think it best to switch seasonally between = humidification and dehumidification modes, disabling one side or the other.  Of course = I think running heater bars opposite buckets in a full DC installation is a bit = silly as well.  If the piano owner is capable of such technical matters, it = would be better to have him/her buy a cheap hygrometer and switch the system back = and forth (or plug/unplug) according to humidification/dehumidification needs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the end, I think the = most trouble-free, no-brains system is the one I have.  The heater = system under the piano takes care of the microcontrol with its own humidistat.  = I leave it on constantly, throughout the year.  Then as ambient humidity = drops below 45%, I run a humidifier on its own humidistat (not = under the piano), so as to maintain the ambient humidity at 45% (the upper end = of the under-piano system's operating cycle), or as high a humidity as won't = create a problem with regard to window/wall condensation (currently 38 or = 39%).  DC buckets may be an attractive option in extreme climates where = the outside temperature gets so brutally low that the interior RH can't = be maintained at a high enough level without condensation.  The = climate here in Ohio may be borderline, as 38 or 39% seems to be my limit right now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I haven't tried this yet, but in the = spring I will be running a dehumidifier downstairs on a timer (night-time running = only, for considerations of noise), so as to drag the household humidity a bit = lower.  I'm convinced the materials of the house hold considerable = moisture and therefore serve as an intermediate</FONT><FONT face=Arial = size=2>-term humidity buffer.  This would explain why it took so long for = me to dehumidify a wet cargo trailer -- and why the RH would shoot up within = minutes of my shutting off the dehumidifier until I finally got all the excess = moisture out of it.  The entire process took a few days.  It was = utterly amazing how much water that wood cold hold!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 8:04 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial = size=2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a Sears basement-style = humidifier in my shop with and "electronic" humidistat. It is quite accurate - I'm = really pleased with it. The older dehumidifier I had before this one had a = garbage humidistat - that is why is ran it off the DC H2 unit. I your = humidifier has a functional humidistat, then that is great. The H2 unit may be = something to consider for someone that has a humidifier or dehumidifier that is = not equipped with a decent humidistat - BUT, no reason to place the H2 = under the piano! Put it out in the room where it can do its job in keeping the = room at the desired RH level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sarah@gendernet.org = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">Sarah Fox</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 7:37 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I use a Kenmore model 42.14125 = unit, which has its own internal humidistat (so current draw is not a = limitation).  The total draw of the system is quite low, at 37W (0.33A), so it = could be plugged into a DC humidistat -- or the GE humidistat I use.  = The default humidity setpoint is something like 60%RH, so it would cycle = on and off satisfactorily with the under-piano humidistat.  There are = much cheaper ultrasonic units that don't have humidistats.  These = would be even better suited for being switched on and off by the under-piano humidistat -- at the end of a very long extension cord, of = course!  :-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January = 14, 2004 7:01 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the = RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What type of room humidifier are = you using? How many watts does it use? I think the H2 humidistats are rated = up to 600 watts. I have ran a Sears basement-type dehumidifier off a = humidistat in the past. That would solve your troubles for when you = travel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=anrebe@zianet.com = href="mailto:anrebe@zianet.com">Andrew & Rebeca Anderson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January = 14, 2004 10:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did = the RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>My wife and I regulate humidity (in winter) = through the whole house with two humidifiers and a gauge on a bookshelf by = the piano.  This requires some attentiveness, and is affected = by outdoor weather.  The problem comes when we travel.  = We were away over the holidays for two weeks and when we returned the = humidity was in the high single digits.  The piano sounded = horrible.  We got humidity up in a few days and in two weeks I = retuned.  We have developed a rather low-tolerance for out-of-tune.  = <BR>The issue is practicality.  Most customers will not go through = the trouble of monitering RH and refilling, turning on/off their = humidifiers on a daily basis.  Once a piano is up to humidity, the DC = will usually last a week often more, it only has a small environment = to keep-up.  The humidity migrates through the wood, even in a = grand piano pin torque is affected (closed lids do help in extreme environments).  Buying a room humidifier that has a = remote-control humidistat will cost more than a DC system, although it would = benefit all the wooden furniture too.  I have discussed this with = clients and some have chosen to get a cheap hardware-store hygrometer = and start running a room humidifier.  They last about halfway to the = next tuning and then want a DC system or believe they can tolerate = the effects on the piano.<BR><BR>Andrew Anderson<BR>Las Cruces, = NM<BR><BR>At 06:40 AM 1/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT = face=arial>I don't think anyone is questioning the effects of RH changes on the = tuning of a piano.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I'm with Sarah = and feel that proper full environment humidity control is the best way = to go - better than a full DC installation.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I think where the arguement comes in is the fact = that probably 99% of full environment humidity control systems are improperly designed, poorly functioning, turned off and = windows opened up, turned off over the holidays and summer, etc., etc. <BR> <BR>But this does not change the fact that if one = installs a proper full environment humidity control system that holds the = RH constant within a few percent, it will be more effective than = a full DC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial>And don't forget = that even if you hard-wire the DC system into the wall, who is ever going = to notice that the circuit breaker tripped 15 months ago and the piano = hasn't had any humidity control since that = time?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>In my shop I have a Sears basement-type = dehumidifier. It keeps the shop right at 45% RH (within a percent or two). I = never varies. How in the world is a DC unit on a piano in my shop = going to work better, or do anything at all besides vapor, dry, vapor, = dry, vapor, dry, etc., etc.?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT = face=arial>So I guess the bottom line is that if one is willing to set up a = proper full environment humidity control system that holds the RH = constant within a few percent, that is the best way to go. From a = practical standpoint, knowing that 90-some% of full environment humidity = control systems are not going to be real effective, the full DC-type = system is the way to go (they DO work quite well). And as someone = pointed out, from a practical standpoint a full DC-type system in a piano = which is in an environment modified by a full environment humidity = control systems is the best around. </FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Flame Suite Tighly = Zipped,</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Terry Farrell</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT = face=arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT><BR><FONT = face=arial size=2>From: "DIANE HOFSTETTER" <<A = href="mailto:dianepianotuner@msn.com">dianepianotuner@msn.com</A>></= FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT><BR><FO= NT face=arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:51 AM</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>Subject: Re: Where = did the RH Go</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial><BR></FONT><FONT face=arial = size=2>> Sarah,<BR>> <BR>> For fourteen years now my partner and = I have been measuring and graphing the <BR>> tuning on every piano = immediately before we tune it.   We also record the = <BR>> relative humidity and temperature most of the time, whether it = has a <BR>> Damppchaser installation or not, and if it is = functioning correctly.<BR>> <BR>> Then when we next tune the piano = and record all the data again, we have a <BR>> way of = understanding how to service the piano to make the tuning as stable <BR>> as possible.<BR>> <BR>> Over the years I have had fun with = a variety of experiments.  One day I <BR>> arrived to = tune a piano in a room that is routinely kept unheated with no = <BR>> climate control in the piano.  The maintenance people had = just turned on the <BR>> heat before I arrived and a stream of = warm area was shooting out of the <BR>> register about ten feet = away.<BR>> <BR>> I was dismayed; the heat should have been turned on = hours before.  I knew <BR>> the tuning could not be = reliable.  I went ahead and graphed the tuning.  As <BR>> soon as = I finished that graph, I remeasured the tuning and graphed it = again. <BR>>   Then I remeasured and regraphed, and then = once again.  I ended up with a <BR>> graph showing four = distinctly separate lines of the tuning as it changed <BR>> with the = relative humidity and temperature for each line carefully = recorded.<BR>> <BR>> There is no question in my mind that changes in = relative humidity affect the <BR>> tuning dramatically and that a Damppchaser system does an excellent job of <BR>> helping = control that.  I have numerous graphs to show it does.<BR>> = <BR>> Diane<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = Diane Hofstetter<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> >From: "Sarah Fox" <<A = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">sarah@gendernet.org</A>><BR>> >Reply-To: Pianotech <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >To: "Pianotech" <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >Subject: Re: Where did the RH Go<BR>> >Date: Mon, 12 = Jan 2004 21:48:30 -0500<BR>> ><BR>> >Hi Don,<BR>> ><BR>> > > I did not say your system didn't work. = What I said was a DC system would<BR>> > > work even = better.<BR>> ><BR>> >Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  I don't = mean to be argumentative on this point.  <BR>> >I'm<BR>> = >really asking a question here:  Have you (or has anyone else) done<BR>> >measurements with a good, accurate hygrometer = on a complete DC grand<BR>> >installation, during dry ambient = conditions, showing that humidity is <BR>> = >indeed<BR>> >evenly distributed all over the soundboard, both under and = on top, and in<BR>> >the action cavity?  Also, have the = same measurements been done inside the<BR>> >piano with a = closed lid and inside the action cavity during predominantly<BR>> >dehumidifying periods?  In other words, are DC's = claims fully <BR>> >substantiated,<BR>> >as determined = empirically with a hygrometer?  I've heard lots of claims<BR>> = >regarding stability of pitch.  That's all well and good, of = course.<BR>> >However, how well does the DC system regulate humidity (in = contrast to<BR>> >pitch)?<BR>> ><BR>> > > = I do recommend room type humdifiers as well--but only to "assist" a = DC<BR>> > > unit. If it is a choice of one or the = other the DC provides much better<BR>> > > year round control = than is generally possible with a room type. There <BR>> = >are<BR>> > > exceptions, but they are very rare.<BR>> = ><BR>> >This sounds like a reasonable approach.<BR>> = ><BR>> > > Do you have measurements for the summer time? Where I am = I have <BR>> >documented<BR>> > > as low as 4% and as = high as 84%.<BR>> ><BR>> >Without humidification, humidity = levels inside my house vary from 27% in <BR>> >the<BR>> = >winter to 67% in the late fall.  I have forced heat and = refrigerated A/C,<BR>> >BTW.  I suspect humidity levels are far different in other parts of the<BR>> >state.  I'm = in Central Ohio.  In the lake areas, humidity is = undoubtedly<BR>> >much higher during moderate weather.  Also, I have no = idea what humidity<BR>> >levels occur in other people's homes = here in Columbus.  (I don't service<BR>> >their pianos. <grin>)<BR>> ><BR>> > > I would love to = have a controller for a DC type system that had much<BR>> > = > narrower limits. I know, for example, that rare bird = hatcheries have <BR>> >units<BR>> > > that are calibrated to = 1/10 of one percent humidity that power an<BR>> > > = "electronic" fan (read no blades--some sort of vibrating plate) = combined<BR>> > > with an ultrasonic humidifer. I'd love to get my pinkies = on one!<BR>> ><BR>> >Well, I can't boast 0.1% limits = with my system (WOW!!), but I do quite a <BR>> >bit<BR>> = >better than the specs DC boasts.  I did a 100% non-DC-brand = installation on<BR>> >my concert grand, using a GE humidistat that = cycles the system adjustably<BR>> >between 40 - 44% (or = occasionally as widely as 39 - 45%) when the ambient <BR>> >RH<BR>> = >is in the upper 40's.  The installation is fairly recent, so I = haven't yet<BR>> >been able to observe its behavior at higher = humidity levels.  I'll give you<BR>> >an update in the = spring if you're interested.<BR>> ><BR>> >Peace,<BR>> >Sarah<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> = ><BR>> >_______________________________________________<BR>> >pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> = _________________________________________________________________<BR>>= Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes = dial-up to the max! <BR>>    <A = href="http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST= =1">http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST== 1</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> = pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> = </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><= /BODY></HTML>