<HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY>Fascinating post Andre.... It might interest you to= know that when I got of WIT in 1974 and went home to Minot,= North Dakota.   I was charging the highest fee of $20= a tuning amongst my competition.   David= Ilvedson <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;= PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid;= PADDING-TOP: 5px"> <HR> Original message From: antares <ANTARES@EURONET.NL> To:= Pianotech <PIANOTECH@PTG.ORG> Received: Sun, 6 Feb 2005= 12:43:25 +0100 Subject: Re: working with ETD's versus..... no= more really... On 6-feb-05, at 3:54, David Andersen= wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>If one insists that an aural tuning is better, so be= it, I prefer to say that some aural tuners, probably like= David Andersen, are really fantastic tuners, but that it= takes a whole lot of energy and stress to produce 5 of= those tunings a day. Working with a near perfect ETD is= far less stressful and costs far less energy. Again, the= unisons are, in my opinion, more important, and so is the= voicing. See, I choose for an economical use of my= time with a maximum result. friendly greetings from= ANDRÉ OOREBEEK </BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely. Agree= 100%. If I was tuning 5 pianos a day, I would definitely look= at the Verituner. By the grace of God, I don't have to do that= these days; just 2 or at the most 3 pianos a day, with other= interesting work thrown in. </BLOCKQUOTE> Alright,= I 've been thinking about dizz..... I don't think that= there is an ongoing war between ETD'ers and Aural'ers. The= time has past and is gone, where older aural tuners scorned= technicians with sophisticated equipment. I think I am right= when I say that we -mostly- all agree that only the very= best ETD's can easily match the very best tunings made by aural= tuners. If one does not and can not agree with this, then I= consider this otherwise highly interesting and informative= discussion one sided and invalid. I do not that think - I -= would spend more time on this issue, because 1. all my= critical customers are extremely satisfied with my ETD tuning= and 2. for me personally it is out of the question to= start all over again with aural tuning, especially so because I= have had it and I have done that for the greater part of my= professional life. Again, I wish to bring forward here,= that I would insist that any tuning student should learn to tune= aurally and then tune at least 10 000 pianos without even= looking at an ETD. If that tuner then chooses to keep on= tuning aurally, or chooses to buy an ETD..... fine, does it= matter? are we at least trying a create a free society,= or what? Which brings me to the fact that you David= (Andersen) have the choice of tuning no more than 2 or at the= most 3 pianos. I think it could be enlightening to some here,= that there is something else in play here : There are some= huge differences between the USA and at least the Netherlands= (and other European countries). What differences am I talking= about? 1. there is the fact that the tuners/technicians= here in Holland are divided in two groups : Those who are= self employed, and those who work for a piano store. Most of= the tuners/technicians work for a piano store and have a regular= income with obligatory health insurance and reasonable pension= plans. Their income can never be fantastic because their= employer needs to make money too. Way in the past, like in= the 19th and first halve of the 20th century, those employed in= a piano store, were living in Dickensian conditions. They were= forced to work 6 days a week, had maybe just a few days a year= vacation (or never), made very long days and were forced to tune= at the least 7 pianos every day (outside the store). We know= those stories. That changed in the second halve of the 20th= century, after WW-II. Socialistic ideas were very strong then= and one began to form unions. This happened all over the World,= except in fascist countries in general, or in places where= people were (and still are) brutalized and forced to stay poor= for ever (like in some African countries where greed and the= most stupefying selfishness prevails in the upper warrior= clans). The profession of the Dutch piano tuners was= placed under the wings of the "Metal Union" and every year, a= small delegation of representatives was sent to the Hague, the= political centre in Holland, to negotiate improving conditions= for their piano tuner/technician members. When I entered the= 'market' in the early seventies, I began to work for a big piano= store in Amsterdam, and, immediately was told to start training= hard because it was customary (still) that the tuners did 7= tunings a day (I have told this here before, but repeat i to= illustrate the working conditions here). At the same time,= tuning a piano then cost about 15,00 US $ ! in the early= seventies! Tuning a piano was considered a low tech kind of= work, and if one said that his (female tuners did not yet exist= then) daily work consisted of tuning pianos, most people would= start to laugh or giggle. They considered it a funny profession,= haha. No wonder wages were very low, and conditions in= general were so so for the piano tuners. No wonder too, that= at a certain moment, more and more tuners left their erstwhile= employers, and started a business for themselves. Those, who= took that step, did not have an easy time either. Health= insurance and pension plans were, and are, very expensive, and,= above all, the Dutch Government always has squeezed every single= soul to the innermost bones, to get to the last excess= marrow. sob sob... With this background in mind, it is= perhaps more easy to understand that the price development (in= general) has taken only a very slow rise over the last 6= decades. Only 5 years ago, tuning a piano cost something like= US $ 55,- to 60,- The introduction of the Euro has put the= cost of living on its head. All prices jumped with at least 30= to 50 % and in some cases, the European currency in general,= just doubled, just like that. (don't ask me why and= how). This price may seem not so bad compared to you= Americans Most piano stores now ask around 75 to 80 US $= (This price may seem not so bad compared to you Americans, but= the comparison between the US and European currency has lost its= reality, due to the inevitable slow sinking away of the US= dollar, thanks to your President), but it is actually still too= low, because the costs of a car are included and the cost of= living has almost doubled here. The heritage of tuning so= many piano's per day, has come to around 30 piano's a week,= through the influence of the Piano union. That means that every= piano tuner who is not self employed has to tune 6 pianos a day,= like it or not. Wages are still so so, but the obligatory= health and pension plan is ok. Those who are self employed,= aim for at least 5 pianos a day, because their costs are high= (car, pension, health plan, taxes) but at least their wages are= not skimmed of by a so called boss, hrmpf. They make more= hours, sometimes 10 to 12 hours a day, including driving,= calling customers, and administration, but they have one huge= advantage over the employed ones : they are free, and if they= choose to go to Antarctica tomorrow, they can do= that. Maybe this long explanation of the Dutch piano= tuner in general, will make you understand that 1. Dutch= tuners were always forced to tune an awful lot of pianos a day= (myself included), 2. always tried to make an extra buck for= themselves either in the evening or in weekends, 3. Were, and= are, therefor prone to early wear and tear of their= bodies, 4. Are for those above reasons, more than ready to= make a new start with a nice and relaxing ETD. I am= certainly not in the lowest ranks of the tuner world here. I= charge my customers 70 Euros which is 90 US Dollars. However,= I am able to tune any more pianos than 2 a day otherwise my poor= left hand will hurt more. So I try to earn my living mostly= with technical work, like regulating and voicing. That is all= very nice, but the level of my clientele is not of the same= level you may have in the chintzy parts of LA. I know LA pretty= well, you can definitely not compare it with Amsterdam, or= Holland for that matter. There is a lot of wealth there and= incredible amount of incredibly rich people. There is no Bel= Air, Hollywood, or Beverly Hills here. It is so different= David. I hope that anybody, reading this, understands= better my arguments why, I in the first place, and many others= here, were more than ready for a sleek machine. Too much= repetitive work, too many chinese equal temperament puzzles= every day till your 65th birthday. It is killing. I consider= myself lucky, to be able my beautiful work, so I am not= complaining. It is just that we have a completely= different background. Sometimes it is interesting and also= enlightening to better understand how other live, especially on= this list, which counts a number of techs who are living in= other places in the World. <BLOCKQUOTE>And maybe I just THINK I do fantastic tunings; it= could be all in my head; perhaps I'm just a big blowhard= who's got everybody fooled. </BLOCKQUOTE> I hope to find= out someday soon?, and I am looking forward to that moment. I= have already been able to check on the skills of my friend= Ricardo in wet and freezing Norway. Let me tell y'all that he= too is one of the best I so far have encountered. Keep that= in mind when he pokes around this list, hehehehe... <BLOCKQUOTE>My affection and respect to you, Master= Oorebeek. David A. </BLOCKQUOTE> Likewise, and= may da foice be witha ya *(; > O= <:)* <?fontfamily><?param Osaka><?color><?param= 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger>friendly= greetings from ANDR<?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily>= <?fontfamily><?param Monaco><?color><?param= 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger>É= OOREBEEK <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfam= ily><?param Osaka><?color><?param FFFF,6F6F,CFCF>Where 'music' is= no harm can be<?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param= Monaco><?color><?param= 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fo= ntfamily><?fontfamily><?param Osaka><?color><?param= 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?x-t= ad-bigger>www.concertpianoservice.nl<?/x-tad-bigger><?color><?par= am= 3333,3333,3333><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?col= or><?param= FFFF,6666,6666><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><= ?color><?param= 3333,3333,3333><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?x-t= ad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily> </DIV></BODY>= </HTML>