<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>Hello, Roger, and all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe you can attain , or anyway tend to, the wanted aftertouch = since the first pass (seeing it as a sensation, plus visual check) . What happens = is that it is not stable enough, as other regulations always, so a second pass = is necessary, (and a third, a fourth  ...) after some time or = immediately, depending of the job.</DIV> <DIV>And indeed the following passes allow for more refinement and give a clearer = lecture of the instrument, I will say also that a very much refined voicing = can't be done unless the regulation is at the most, so the power delivered by the = action is very even.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A regulation pass including the letoff, the lever position, the springs, = the drop, the backchecks, the hammer stroke  is possible in less than 2 = hours apparently (I've done 2 yesterday, plus numerous tunings and voicing. So = it is just a matter of knowing what we are doing and "follow the rules" at the = moment where we do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have many elements that tell us where the aftertouch is, so it is not = that difficult to focus on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I refer primarily to tone (among others) , and I generally notice the note = that have a little less aftertouch, and then I see the hammer that is = slightly lower (visual impaired tuners may well do the same), or the dip a little more = (or the roller misplaced, etc...).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would not  not name really tight the specifications = Andre gives, but they look to me like tendencies (the 0.4 mm landing being the = nicest) Sometime they are due to other elements than your regulation as well = like the front punching, the checking, so it may be  useful to learn to = recognize them so we know what we are doing before hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes why not refuse to regulate a piano = with second grade or old front punching , when you have used your shoes, you change = them is not it ? when it comes to = the price of first class punching they are not that expensive = (around 10$) . The same refuse to work on worn hammers (I understand why, really , thanks = Andre, even, if a fast shaping is 10 min work can help, you get NOTHING of old = hammers, nor a big desequilibrium in tone and touch '(and too much work to get it = acceptable).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I order around 12 sets of Yamaha green = punching each 2 months or so,  I understand Andre obtained Wurzen front punching = with a better give, a little like the Steinway ones, and I am impatient to try = them. The price of a set is not high, and when used to the 2 fingers method = insertion from Yamaha, (or the brucel  pliers for the ones that have too = thick fingers) , changing the punching is 10-15 min work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the same moment, it is a good opportunity = to level the cardboard punching quantity, and get rid of the numerous thin = punching that can have been added.</DIV> <DIV>I am anal for the paper punching quality, and = I use only Yamaha ones, they are not that cheap, but more fast to install and = they are stable in time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am yet to find a better solution, but I'll = avoid at any price second choice front paper punching(and balance of course)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few years ago no one was taking care of the = front punching, then now it is the most used trick around good professionals = to ameliorate a piano in a pinch. It = generally brings large smile to the face of the pianists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isaac OLEG</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Message d'origine----- De : = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de Roger Jolly Envoyé : mardi 30 mars 2004 = 06:12 À : Pianotech Objet : Re: something about after touch and = movement of the jack. </DIV> Hi Andre,           &nb= sp;      We play from the same page and have the same philosophy toward regulation.    Wonder if the YTA had any thing to do with = it? The tight specs you refer to, cannot be attained in a one = pass regulation.    So we do not confuse some readers. The 1mm = clearance that I referred to as being ample will suffice.  To = Attain the tolerances that Andre is the complete regulation procedure has to be = done approximately 3 times. My definition of after touch = is.   Lost time and lost space.      There has to be some, = any extra is a waste. Like you I am anal about the quality of front = rail punching's.  I take it a step further, and make sure the card and = paper punching's are kept to a minimum, to reduce the concertina effect. =   On concert pianos I have a trade mark of a blue punching under the felt ).010"  this way I can increase the after touch very quickly at a = pianist request, with out messing with the hammer line. I hope this = clears up my position.    I am in 100% agreement with you = Andre. After touch, transmits more about the soul of a piano, to the pianist than we = can ever imagine. Thank's for your wonderful contributions Andre, they are = greatly valued. Regards Roger At 02:28 PM 3/29/2004, you = wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">----- Original = Message ----- From: Roger = Jolly To: Pianotech Sent: 3/29/2004 = 7:45:00 AM Subject: Re: Jack to knuckle position Hi Julie, =           &nbsp= ;    1mm with out the front rail punching starting to become = depressed,  will give a generous amount of after touch. The front rail = punching, enters into the equation big time.   After touch within = limits is a personal preference. So no black and white answer to the = question. With a smile on my face:  Depends on which way the nap lies??????  mmmmmmmmmmmm Regards Roger </BLOCKQUOTE> After touch is a rather = important issue. I personally think a seminar of certainly 2 = hours could be done about this subject. Why? Because after touch determines touch and sound. After touch is a safety = measure. Too much after touch is a waste. Too little after touch, a = deficiency and a nuisance. Why? When we regulate an action correctly, we = have to obey certain rules, like : Regulation starts with the = keyboard. The keys usually all must have a key dip of 10 mm (except for = regulation rules defined by some 'idiots'  (like Steinway, Pleyel and = Blüthner) who were of a different opinion. (smile...... (; >))  ) Key = dip relates to hammer striking distance as, roughly speaking. 1: 5 = (usually a little less in the striking distance) This means that with a = very strict key dip of 10 mm, we may expect a = hammer striking distance of a little less than 50 mm. Both = Steinway and Yamaha supply us with a striking distance gauge of 46 mm as an average = (and thus more or less correct) striking distance. Normally speaking, = 46 mm should be in accordance with a key dip of 10 mm or even = slightly less (9,8 mm). Most actions will satisfy these demands and give us = a general ok result. However, sometimes, an action may have just a = little trouble maybe with these measures in one or two hammer sections, = caused by the iron frame or otherwise) and this will have to alter the striking = distance of these same hammer sections. These alterations are mainly caused by = the curvature of the soundboard and the iron frame, or a technical = deficiency in the action or the key bed. To get the utmost out of any = action, we must strictly follow the universal regulation instructions and = then...  check the possibilities and/or limitations of these actions. After = we have regulated an action 'according to the rules we have learned', we could = check the amount of after touch in different sections of the action. We = do this by gently depressing 'a' key and following the subsequent hammer = movement through let off and drop. After the hammer has gone trough the let = off and 'drop' movement, the key will immediately afterwards  rest on the = front rail punching. After the key has touched the = front rail punching, we should gently press on the key and see if = there still is a movement in the hammer. By gently = pressing the key after all the action movements, we should be able to move the = hammer in an upward motion by 0,4 mm. 0,4 mm is very little, but when the = front punching is too soft, an after touch of 1 mm or more is no exception. For that reason, we MUST remove a too soft front = punching before we start regulation. There are several very good front = punching options  available : There is the Yamaha front punching for = serial instruments and  for Yamaha concert instruments, there is = Steinway front punching, and there is Wurzen front punching. These three = have a thickness of 5mm basically and are excellent for any piano. When we are certain that the front punching is of excellent = quality (this is of course very important)  the after touch = can be measured very accurately. Any after touch of more than 0,4 mm we = call a 'soft landing'. A soft 'landing' is caused by : a = too soft front punching (the key sinks into the too soft front punching = too much) A too large key dip (the key dip is too big in relationship = with the striking distance) A too short striking distance (the = striking distance is too little in relationship with the key dip) A = perfect l'anding' is an after touch of 0,4 mm. A hard = 'landing' is almost no after touch or no after touch. A = hard 'landing' means that we move key, wippen and hammer through all the = playing motions without any lost motion. There is no extra movement in = the action available. A hard 'landing' is actually = the very best solution because there is no waste of time, and no waste of = energy, but at the same time it causes a danger for the pianist when he/she plays = ppp, because, when there is no extra movement available, it may cause the = jack, in extreme circumstances, to not quite go away from under the knuckle and = thereby cause the hammer to bounce on the jack (especially when the repetition = spring is tight, or when the combination hammer-and-backcheck is not = optimal). In that case, a so called free movement of the jack after let = off and drop is essential. friendly greetings from André = Oorebeek Amsterdam - The Netherlands 0031-20-6237357 0645-492389 0031-75-6226878 <A href="http://www.concertpianoservice.nl/" eudora="autourl">www.concertpianoservice.nl</A> <A href="http://www.grandpiano.nl/" = eudora="autourl">www.grandpiano.nl</A> "where music is, no harm can be" </blockquote></x-html> = </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>