<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C505CF.38610A20"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>  <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple = style='tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=Section1> I appreciate your comments and I = wasn’t trying to accuse anyone of making things up. I have a colleague who has some = samples of the Wurzen punchings and will loan them to me so that I can try it. My experience with the = <st1:place>Baldwin</st1:place>, in which I was able to compare a “hard landing” with a soft one = made me think about it. This piano = was very evenly voiced (by me) and when I inserted a small group of punchings in = the middle of an octave so that I could test the tone in that octave I heard = no difference between the old and the new. I could feel the difference, but could not detect a change in = tone. I would have expected when playing = through the notes of that scale to hear a reduction in volume on the notes that = had received the softer punching. I think I am a skilled enough voicer to have heard a reduction of 5 or 10%. While the existing punchings were = not the ones you speak of, if the reasoning for the increased loudness is a = harder landing, I would have expected the same net effect. That was the reason for my = inquiry. Now perhaps there is a difference = with the Wurzen punching that will not be produced by the hardened or harder = <st1:place>Baldwin</st1:place> punching. I hope to find that = out. But if so, at least from this = small experiment, it seems that something else might be at work. Not being able to answer the = engineering side of that question myself as my background is in the visual arts, music, psychology (and golf) I was interested in what that explanation might = be. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> David Love <st1:PersonName>davidlovepianos@comcast.net</f= ont></st1:PersonName> = <o:p></o:p> </div> -----Original = Message----- From: = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of <st1:PersonName>antares</st1:= PersonName> Sent: Saturday, January = 29, 2005 3:13 AM To: Pianotech Subject: Re: your = punching comments <o:p> </o:p> On 29-jan-05, at 4:49, David Love wrote:<o:p></o:p> <?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param = 0000,0000,8080><?x-tad-bigger>I just want to revisit this for a minute.  While the greater = preciseness of the dip/aftertouch etc., makes sense, the see-saw analogy doesn’t, = at least not on the surface.  It seems to me that the reason the child bounces in the air when the see-saw comes to an abrupt halt is not = because the abrupt halt causes the child on the other end to accelerate faster, = rather it is because the abrupt halt causes separation between the constantly accelerating child and the more rapidly de-accelerating see-saw.  I = would appreciate an engineering analysis considering not only the flexibility = of the key, but the flexibility of the hammer shank as well and whether there = is really adequate distance remaining between the hammer and the string at = the point at which the key bottoms out for any real difference in = acceleration of the hammer to occur, if any of you engineers cares to offer = one. <o:p></o:p> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily> The fact that the touch and the sound changes after putting in a new = punching has, in my opinion, nothing to do with key and shank flex. The mass and stiffness of especially the key is much too big for a small = item like this punching to get seriously influenced that much more and the = increase in sound is, after all, not really that dramatic. It is there, but I = would say that in most pianos it is an increase in loudness of maybe 5 to 10 = %. I therefor remain convinced that it is the harder bounce, caused by a = firmer underground, that makes the tone louder , especially after inserting the = firmer punching because it of the firmer 'underground', the more so, because an increase in loudness is = already noticeable during 'soft = play'. The small increase in sound is noticeable every time, but only if the = original punching is softer. When the original punching is equal in firmness or = even more firm (not to say hard), the loudness in tone will decrease. To me it seems obvious that when the sea saw comes down harder, the = child on the high end must hold on tighter to the bar on the sea saw because of = the reactionary forces. But, I have in my feeble possessions only a swimming diploma, a driver's license and a certificate which proves I attended the pianotech school = in Amsterdam, so of course = it would be interesting to hear what a 'specialist' has to say about this, = although it will not change the opinion of all the technicians who were able to try = out the firmer punching. Firmer is Firmer, and louder is louder.<o:p></o:p> <?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param = 0000,0000,8080><?x-tad-bigger>As a bit of anecdotal evidence (for what it’s worth) on this note, I = tuned and regulated a Baldwin today, medium grand with very firm white punchings = under the keys.  They were firm enough that I found the feeling at the = bottom of the stroke somewhat unpleasant.  After regulating and voicing the = piano I replaced a couple of the punchings with newer softer ones as I carry a = few (Pianotek pear green 7/8” diameter, fairly firm, medium thick 5.5 mm).  Not only did the new punchings produce a key stroke that felt = much nicer on the fingers with no discernable sacrifice on the ability to = accurately regulate the dip, but the tone was unchanged.  Obviously, I’m curious if this phenomenon is real or imagined.  I might add that I = do firmly believe in the placebo effect and can see how a difference in the = feel of the action might contribute to a difference in perception of the = tone, at least from the player’s perspective.  I don’t imagine = that the listener, not being able to feel the bottom of the keystroke, would = notice anything at all.  <o:p></o:p> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily> I do not know the punchings you described, used by Baldwin, but if they = are very hard, I can easily imagine that a softer punching feels nice(r). = After all, a too hard landing is usually never a nice experience, generally = speaking (; For that reason, we chose for elasticity with a certain firmness, and = the best choice is of course Wurzen felt, because that factory makes the finest = felt in the world because it has the highest felt homogeneity. The firmness, caused by the density/homogeneity of the felt and, = especially, the natural elasticity = caused by the high quality wool fibers create a firmer touch than most punchings, = without causing the feeling of unpleasantness you described from the Baldwin = punching. I do not know the pear green punching you describe, so I am not able to = compare them, but in the opinion of our customers, and myself, there has not been, yet, a conical punching like = ours that makes for such a precise after touch, and after touch is for me the most important issue when it comes to fine regulation. Of course after touch = is a flexible issue, but on the other hand, it is not, as we are taking about 10ths of a = mm. We also have received affirmative and rather positive responses, - = especially - form customers in = the USA (see Dale Erwin's comment below), which proves that the punching we sent = them has some very special qualities - unless one does not want to believe = those comments. In earlier posts, years ago, I have already described my experience with = the high quality Yamaha and Steinway punching and the fact that they too are conical. I heard this effect for the first time during the CP course in = Hamamatsu, where my teacher showed me the difference between a soft punching and a Yamaha punching, and the - subtle - = difference in tone when you put the conical side below, instead of up (btw, there = are several kinds of Yamaha punching for several models). I have had the very same experience at Steinway in Hamburg. The fact that major factories have and use this knowledge, and that they = teach this to their trainees, also proves the value and knowledge of using a specific, higher quality front punching. The title of the email to which I react now said " Andres punching tested". I understand that your email was a reaction to somebody else's email, = but it now may seem as if you have tested my front punching, which, if I read your message well, you have not done = yet, so I would suggest to you, if you allow me to say so, to test our new = punching first, before we go on with this conversation. Because of the "Placebo effect" in general, but also because = you mentioned this effect here, I have time and again given the advice to = : "Listen carefully to a selected tone of an instrument (with softer punching) and try to memorize the sound and especially the way it feels. Remove the existing punching and put in the Wurzen felt one. Repeat the listening and touch process, and repeat this a couple of times. Most technicians (and pianists) get very excited and confused the very = first time, but, naturally, want to make sure that it is true what they heard = and felt, so it is best to change the punching repeatedly until the = difference is undoubted". An open mind, neutrality, and professional experience will undoubtedly = give a fair answer. André Oorebeek Amsterdam The Netherlands Where 'music' is no harm can be <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?color><?param 0000,0000,8080><?x-tad-bigger>David Love <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?color><?param = 0000,0000,8080><?x-tad-bigger>davidlovepianos@comcast.net <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?color><?param = 0000,0000,8080><?x-tad-bigger><?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily><?fo= ntfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>-----Original Message----- <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param = Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>From:<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily>= <?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] = <?x-tad-bigger><?/x-tad-bigger>On Behalf Of = <?/x-tad-bigger><?x-tad-bigger>antares <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param = Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>Sent:<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily>= <?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger> Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:35 AM <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param = Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>To:<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?= fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger> Pianotech <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param = Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>Subject:<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><= /b><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger> Re: Andres punching tested <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>  <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>On 13-jan-05, at = 7:06, gordon stelter wrote: <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Please explain = the suspected mechanism behind tonal <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>change due to punching substitution. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>G <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>  <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>quote from me in = another email to the list : <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Well, that is a = subtle issue but not hard to explain : <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>It is a matter of transferring energy. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>If the upper surface of the front punching is the smallest, the transfer of = energy will be enhanced to the bottom more easily. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Suppose you strike a giant, non conical, front punching with your fist, and you = strike that front punching in the middle.... <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Part of the energy will be absorbed by the outermost sides of that very same punching and the sides may even curl up a little. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Now you have a = giant conical front punching, meaning = that the upper surface is smaller that the bottom side, and you again strike it = in the middle. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>There is less mass on the upper side, so the transfer of energy to the bottom = is more direct. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>That's the meaning of a conical punching. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Of course, the = effect will be even stronger if the fabric of the front punching is not soft, = the way so many front punchings are, but instead more dense and thus more = firm. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>That's the beauty of the front punching I described before : It is more dense = because it is made of very dense felt instead of woven fabric. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A more dense front punching allows for a more precise key depth. A more = precise key depth allows for a more precise regulation. A more precise = regulation allows for a more precise after touch. A more precise after touch allows = for a more precise hammer striking distance. A more defined hammer striking = distance allows for more energy, and more energy allows for a better transfer of = energy. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>So there the circle is rounded : one of the smaller parts of our actions, = the front punching, plays actually a major role in the forming and making of = tone. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>The making of tone is, in the end, what it is all about. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>and: <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A key is like a = sea saw. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Usually, we find an old car tire under both sides of the sea saw to soften the = impact. Nevertheless, a little child sitting on the high end of the sea saw will = bump upwards slightly because of the impact at the lower end. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Now, if we take away the tires, the impact will be much harder and it will = hurt the behind of the child coming down, but it will also cause the other child = to almost get airborne, because the force of the impact is much = stronger. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>That is the an analogy in regard to a more firm front punching : It causes a = more intense transfer of energy and thereby creates a louder tone. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Your regulation can be more precise, thereby giving you the maximum tonal = output. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>unquote <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>If you need more = info, mail me privately. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>André = Oorebeek <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>----- Original = Message ----- <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>From: Erwinspiano@aol.com <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>To: pianotech@ptg.org ; caut@ptg.org <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:58 PM <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Subject: Andres punching tested <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>List <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>While putting the final hours on a newly bellied <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>D I did an experiment. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>I had installed the usual Thick green punching <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>a while back prior to receiving the New Oorebeck <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>front rail punching's. So I listened to the sound of <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>F-4 carefully, checked the dip , then changed to the <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>new ones, checked the dip , played the note & the <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>sound suddenly came together with more power and <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>clarity than the first punching. The solidity under <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>my finger was firm and sure. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Thinking it to be an anomally I changed back <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>to the green ones. The Sound diminsihed & lacked <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>focus. Well ,I did this a bout three times on the <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>same note with the same result. I then checked a <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>bass note f-1 with the same effect. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>I'd say the new puncing has a similar <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>beneficial yet cumulative effect much like to mating <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>& hammers to & leveling strings <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>I placed the green punching between two pieces <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>of thin maple & put a calipers on each side. The <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>compression with modest force would change easily as <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>much as .030. The white new punching only .010. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Considering all this, since the key is where <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>the power is generated it needs to have a precise <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>stopping moment. If not after touch can change to a <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>depth of .420 even with an initial dip setting of <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>.390 .(which is my preferred dip in Steinways <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>whenever possible.) <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Think of the distance in excessive jack travel <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>especially on parts with a narrow window for jack <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>movement & also it's effect on slowing repitition <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>performance. With the white punchings a far more <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>dependable dip /touch can be assured. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Think of the improvement in SOUND Baby!!!!!!!! <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>I noticed no change in noise even though this <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>is a pressed felt & not woven. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>I immediately changed the entire set & tomorrow <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>or Friday I'll have a chance to hear & feel the <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>whole piano. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Regards <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Dale Erwin <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>__________________________________ <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Do you Yahoo!? <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>_______________________________________________<b= r> <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>friendly = greetings <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>from <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Times New = Roman><?bigger><?bigger>André Oorebeek <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Vita Dura = Est<o:p></o:p> <?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily> Where 'music' is no harm can be André Oorebeek Amsterdam The Netherlands<o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html>