<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=Windows-1252"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Tune it so the = 10th (F3-A4) beats just noticeably faster than the F3-A3 third. If I am aural tuning = I tune to personally tune with fast beating intervals (see Potter, = Coleman, etc.) BUT it is very handy to be able to tune and recognize good 5ths and 4ths = in your temperament to use as checks--including a check of your temperament = octave, which is usually 4:2 or close to it. Tune the A3-E4 and D4-A4 5ths then = listen to the fourths on E4 and D4, that will tell you immediately if your = octave is good. Also, if you tune A4 then A3, then F3 (about 7 bps "Min-i-tonk-a, Min-i-tonk-a, Min-i-tonk-a, ...." ), then the F3-F4 octave (you with = me?) then see if you can tune C#4 so that the beat rate progression of F3-A3, = A3-C#4, C#4-F4, F4-A4 is smooth and even, then you can be certain you have a = temperament 10th (F3-A4) that will work -- and 5 "anchor" notes to test your = intervals against as you tune.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Another way is = to use ghost tones. If you have a pretty quiet tuning environment, this will give you = dead-on accurate 4:2s, 6:3s, etc. Of course, whether or not you WANT precise = intervals is a matter of taste AND what the piano is trying to tell you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT = face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>If you're = interested, here's a longish post on ghost tuning that I put up a couple of years ago.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT = face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial><A href="https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2002-September/118743.html= ">https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2002-September/118743.html</A></= FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT = face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>(Just looked at = that, and the archive formatting is kinda confusing. I'll attach the orginal = Word  document to this post. It's good stuff to know about = ...)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT = face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT face=Arial>Have fun, = you'll get it ... then you'll wonder why you ever had a problem with = it!</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=781230321-22092004><FONT = face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Alan R. = Barnard</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Salem, MO</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr = align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> = Matthew Todd [mailto:pianotech88@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September = 22, 2004 11:54 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Octave Tuning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Now, how exactly do you tune the fourth partial of the lower = octave note to the second partial of the upper octave note?  I have heard = that some techs just tune the octave 1/2 a beat wide, and leave it at = that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you can call me stupid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Matthew<BR><BR><B><I>Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px = solid">Hi Mathew,<BR><BR>Current thought is that a unison is the only "pure" = item in tuning. An<BR>Octave can only be "beat free" at one partial at a = time. Do an archive<BR>search for octaves and you will get loads of hits.<BR><BR>narrowest possible octave 2:1; a3 to a4 beatless at = a4<BR>wider 4:2; a3 to a4 beatless at a5<BR>wider 6:3; a3 to a4 beatless at = e6<BR><BR>It is common to tune a3 to a4 somewhere between 4:2 and 6:3--just to make<BR>the task a little more difficult. I believe this is what = Virgil Smith does<BR>when he attempts to tune the "whole sound" of the = octave. I.E. his 4:2<BR>beats at a rate which may "cancel" the beat of the 6:3. = How long such a<BR>"balance" will last is dependant on nothing in the = enviroment changing,<BR>including barometric pressure.<BR><BR>More on unisons:<BR><BR>We also have to deal with the "coupled" motion of = piano strings. The bridge<BR>is a f! lexible termination. Some studies = have suggested that a one hertz<BR>difference in two strings will result = in zero beating heard. One hertz at<BR>A4 is approximately 4 cents--a huge = number for a unison to be "out". There<BR>is also some suggestion that a = truely "pure" unison gives the piano a<BR>rather "dead" sound with poor sustain.<BR><BR>Inharmonicity:<BR><BR>There is no doubt that the = impedance mismatch between the strings, bridge<BR>and soundboard produces a measureable effect on the width of octaves. In<BR>some cases this = "para inharmoncity" can be a negative number.<BR>Translation--the = narrowest octave would be smaller than a "theorectical" 2:1.<BR><BR>Setting Temperament:<BR><BR>I'd suggest you use one of the "self correcting" = temperments such as the<BR>Baldassin-Sanderson. Have a look here:<BR><BR>http://www.accu-tuner.com/SATIIImanual/apf.html = <BR><BR>At 07:42 PM 21/09/2004 -0700, you wrote:<BR>> need some help from = all of you. Is it true that the two things that<BR>&g! t;remain pure in = a piano when we tune is unisons and octaves? And if we do<BR>>that, the = octave will have a slight beat to it, right? I think I = missed<BR>>something. You guys are great! Thanks!!<BR>>Matthew <BR>>__________________________________________________<BR>>Do = You Yahoo!?<BR>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam = protection around <BR>>http://mail.yahoo.com <BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Don Rose, = B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.<BR><BR>mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/<BR><BR>3004 Grant Rd.<BR>REGINA, = SK<BR>S4S 5G7<BR>306-352-3620 or = 1-888-29t-uner<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>pian= otech list info: = https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://vote.yahoo.com">vote.yahoo.com</A> = - Register online to vote today!</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>---<BR> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).<BR> Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 09/10/2004<BR> </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> </FONT> </P>