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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002>Mr.
Bremmer</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=3 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">. I
am not sure I understood all of what you were saying about unisons =
while using
my Tempered Octaves method. Yes, I use the strip mute and the =
Sostenuto or
Damper pedal to compare the Double Octave and 12th. I leave the =
strip
mute in the center section and progress all the way to the top before =
tuning
the unisons and then tune unisons from the top downwards. <SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff>I am not used to hear =
any clear
stretch between 1 string and another only, that seem clearer =
for me
when at last 2 strings are singing at last for any note of the =
interval
tuned. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#000000 =
face=Arial lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff>Not sure I agree with =
your
method, while I am sure it gives good =
results.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff>The Coupled Motion =
String Effect,
depending of the piano and the way unisons are tuned, can really lend =
to pitch
drop but to pitch raise as well (mostly in the treble) I am not =
comfortable
with the idea that when I will tune the unison, the drift will be =
similar on
the 2 notes. Regarding the strip muting method, I noticed that =
people
using this method (the few I've seen) are comfortable with moderate to =
low
stretch tunings always </FONT><FONT =
color=#0000ff>.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff> Even when you =
temper your
octaves and the twelve's (or double) , with one string only you are =
obliged to
follow a theory rule and listen to beats. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>Now if you tune one string against another =
one with
the pedal engaged, I think that it may be well possible you reproduce =
the CMSE
a bit, but between octave and double, if it is possible, so may be =
there is no
error too.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT =
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff> When it is done =
with unison
tuned it is only a natural tendency, that is why I've find it so easy =
. May be
the drawback is that I am exposed to much more sound (ear fatigue), =
but , to
my "so called perfect ear (and brain!)" the comparison between 12th =
and double
is something musical and Pythagorean, so it please my ear.
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>It is funny I noticed too that my tunings =
can be
astonishing when I was tired and not trying too much to listen and =
focus on
sound. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>Regarding the "perfect ear" question that =
can lend to
interminable discussions, what I am sure is that if I listen to a =
piano tuned
I immediately hear where the tuning is musical and where not, that =
mean I will
accept HT or whatever as ET, but all may be in tune with the piano in =
a
musical fashion. What is nice is that I can catch immediately a note =
which
have drifted a little or unison problem, so the touch up at the =
intermede is
more efficient.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 size=3 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT =
face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff>I like strip muting a =
lot for
pitch raises, and may be for the less fatigue it provide, but I simply =
can't
hear the sound I am after if unisons are not =
tuned.</FONT> <FONT
color=#0000ff>May be I could train myself in that too, and obtain =
less
fatigue.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#000000
lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR><BR>I still leave the middle section =
muted to
tune the Bass and its unisons next and tune the middle unisons last.
Although this is quite the opposite of the way most people tune, =
I have
good reason for doing it this way. For one, the *Coupled Motion =
of
Strings Effect* (CMSE), causes the pitch to drop slightly when a full =
unison
is played.<SPAN class=440415110-20012002> <FONT color=#0000ff =
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Therefore,
I never tune a single string against a full unison. If there is =
a drop
in pitch after the unison is tuned, then I will not have tuned a =
single string
very precisely only to have it fall slightly flat of where I want it =
to be
when finished. I set the relationship between any two notes as I =
intend,
then if both drop slightly, there is no net negative =
effect. <SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT =
face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT color=#0000ff =
face=Arial
size=2><SPAN class=440415110-20012002>That is there I I think =
there is place
for error. The VT 100, showing an estimate of pitch with all partials
sounding, shows pretty well a 2cts drop in the middle of a piano, =
while the
drop can be 1 ct in the 6 octave to none or even the over direction in =
the
treble. That depends of your touch too of course. =
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN><BR><BR>In the EBVT in the =
middle part
of the piano, you can get the Major 3rd and the Major 6th of any =
second
inversion triad of any white key tonality except F to beat exactly the =
same.
Because you are from a different culture, you may know certain =
ideas by
different names than we do in North America. Instead of a scale =
whose
note names are "do re mi fa sol la ti do", we think of the same thing =
as "C D
E F G A B C". <FONT size=2><FONT =
color=#0000ff><SPAN
=
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN class=440415110-20012002>Sorry my fault, was =
reading the
1st inversion. Not sure I have a clear picture in mind , but is =
this test
lending to any 6:4 relationship in the 5ths ? or a 6:3 type =
octave
?</SPAN><BR><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT =
face=Arial><BR>The
root position of the C Major triad is C-E-G. The 1st inversion =
is E-G-C.
The second inversion is G-C-E. In EBVT, the G3-E4 6th will =
beat
exactly the same as the 3rd, C4-E4. Other examples after =
completing the
midrange are: B3-E4-G#4, A3-D4-F#4, G3-C4-E4, E3-B3-D#4, =
D3-G3-B3,
B2-E3-G#3. I also find other pairs of intervals which beat =
exactly the
same. Certainly, where the 5ths are pure in EBVT, the minor 3rd =
will
beat exactly the same as the major 3rd in any root position minor =
triad.
One of the tests for a pure 5th is to prove this relationship.
</DIV></FONT></FONT><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002> <FONT =
size=3>W</FONT></SPAN></FONT>hat I
heard of good pianos tuned in H.T makes the piano sound like if it =
was older
( a little used).</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT><FONT face=Arial> </FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002> Comments
from the pianist : "the piano have drifted a bit", or "takes a cold =
and hot"
Of course some pianists don't even notice that the piano is in HT or =
reverse
Well, but some do, and I prefer to
work </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002><FONT size=2> <FONT size=3>for =
these ones
!</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">to
tune using the cycle of fifths oblige you to be aware of color and
musicality of the result.</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000 =
lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN class=440415110-20012002>That correspond to =
the comments
I've heard yet from all tuners who worked the HT.
</SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial =
lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">EBVT (I will try it again) may well be much =
appreciated
by musicians.</FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT =
color=#000000 lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT size=3><FONT =
color=#0000ff lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I've find the black keys very nice, white keys =
a bit
exaggerate sometime (<SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002> raw </SPAN>),
but I was happy of what I find.</FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial> <FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN
=
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT =
face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
=
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT =
face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002> <FONT
size=3>As I see the kind of tone you like on US pianos, may be it =
is a less
percussive instrument that what we have in Europ, with a more stable =
pitch
in unison. I think that it is fairly understandable that =
because of our
different culture, languages and past we ear differently (as for =
Asian or
African are surely hearing differently) so please don't =
misunderstand me.
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=3 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">You last
comment is interesting because if anything, it is the white keys which =
most
people like the most. I am not sure what you mean by the word
"crude". <SPAN class=440415110-20012002><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff =
face=Arial lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN class=440415110-20012002>Less tempering =
in white keys
= less activity in minor and major tonalities . That is a strong =
color, I
don't find it very warm even if very pleasing - I did not mean sour =
either,
may be a little rough for sure.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>A friend of mine , visual impaired =
tuner, tells
me that for him the tempered fifths is a natural interval. When he was =
learning to tune the teacher asked him to tune pure fifths as an =
exercise, and
when he thinks he had tuned 'perfect' fifths it was always in fact =
tempered
ones he tuned. For me too the (slightly) tempered fifths is sounding a =
natural
interval, and the pure fifths is more aggressive.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002> </SPAN> You may possibly =
misunderstand the
meaning of that word in our language. "Crude" is a cognate of =
the word
"cru" in French. But this is an example one of the "faux amis" =
(meaning
"false friends" in English) between French and English. The two =
words
have different meanings in each of our languages. <BR><BR>"Crude" in =
English
means "brute" (which means "rough" in English) in French. "Cru" =
in
French means "raw" in English. In most any HT, there is always =
the
lament that the "smooth" ("suave" in French) or "sweet" ("doux" in =
French)
must inevitably surrender to the "rough" ("brute" in French) or "sour" =
("aigre" in French). What do you call something rough, sharp and =
sourly
out of tune in French? Which words do you use to describe a =
sweet,
gentle and pleasing sound in French? <SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff lang=0 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN class=440415110-20012002>Your French is =
indeed very
complete, we use the same words, doux, suave, rond, chaleureux, chaud, =
coloré,
clair, brillant , agressif, acide, terne, éteint, sombre, =
étouffé. Others came
to mind but I will send you a better list =
later</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> <FONT =
face=Arial><FONT
lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">It seems to me that you do not like the =
tempering in
the white keys. You can adjust it to suit your taste or that of =
a
customer. Start with you F3-A3 3rd at 7 beats per second, the =
same as
ET. Then make your C4-E4 3rd, the G3-E4 6th and the G3-B3 3rd =
all beat
at this same rate. You can probably still keep the four pure =
4ths and
5ths as pure or you may find that you need to temper them just a =
little, but
still less than in ET. <BR><BR><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>Thanks for these informations, all this is =
probably
worth the investissment. I often have to tune after some "Reverse =
Well" tuner,
and even had to learn his bearing plan to understand his error on =
touch ups,
so I can keep the same flavor with only a few corrections (20 min =
allowed
often) . But having a better understanding of tempering is absolutely =
the best
trick in a tuner's bag for sure. ET is not a tempering either ( I am =
not
afraid of flame suit, my post are not read generally
!)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">You can =
use my unique
Tempered Octaves method with any of the above. Find a sound =
based upon
what you learn from my methods which pleases *you* and your ear rather =
than
trying to ascertain whether you can tune exactly the way I do. I =
vary
the way I tune to suit the circumstances. Making the piano =
"sing" and
provide the most pleasing sound for the way it will be used is a more =
worthy
goal in my opinion than to try to tune every piano the same way.
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#000080>T<SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>his is my goal too and what I
try.</SPAN><BR><BR></FONT>My general goal with the EBVT however, is to =
make
the modern piano sound more in tune, "cleaner", "clearer" and more =
musically
appropriate than ET would and not have anyone object to anything about =
it,
only respond positively. I usually think more in terms of the =
EBVT being
used for modern music rather than early, even though it is still =
compatible
with those earlier forms and more musically appropriate than ET.
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT =
face=Arial>T<SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>hat is how I felled the flavor too, not =
specially
sounding old (anyway on this RX2 piano). I will be back to it very =
soon and
let you know what I find.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><FONT
face=Arial>R<SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002>egards.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><SPAN =
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN><FONT
face=Arial>I<SPAN class=440415110-20012002>saac
OLEG</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial =
size=2><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002>Best tech in town - (wow ! I like that
!)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=440415110-20012002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
face=Arial><BR> </DIV></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>