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<DIV><BR><FONT size=3>> > <BR>> ><BR>> >Ric wrote<BR>>=
; Lacquer DOES ruin a hammer from the perspective of any<BR>>=
> future needling-up. But of course it does not <&=
lt;ruin>> a hammer from<BR>> > some other per=
spective.<BR>> ><BR>> >*It ruins the style hammers you"re using =
perhaps but Ruin implies to <BR>> make useless. I have a lot of lacquerd =
hammers out there with lacquer <BR>> in them sounding just grand. None of=
these hammers are made in the <BR>> same fashion as the ones you are acc=
ustomed to<U><STRONG>. I'm just trying to <BR>> make the distinction.</ST=
RONG></U><BR>> .*<BR><BR>Dale... I dont mean to be rude hear... but I am =
not going to argue <BR>sematics back and forth with you when I have already =
twice gone out of <BR>my way to qualifiy very precisely the use and valid do=
main for the word <BR>"ruin". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> <STRONG>>> I get your point here. I'v=
e gone out of my way mine as well. It's easy to read something here & &a=
mp; misconstrue it unless the distinctions are clearly & frequently made=
, which I've been doing.<BR></STRONG> Your sentence above is in essens=
e nothing more the a repeat of my last <BR>two comments on this point, with =
a certain degree of apparrent <BR>defensiveness added in. <BR> I=
say again... lacquering hammers will ruin then with respect to any <BR>even=
tual needling up attempts later. And that goes for all hammers, tho <BR><U>p=
erhaps that is less important for hammers that never had any tension to <BR>=
release to begin with.</U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><U><FONT size=3></FONT></U> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG><U> >>>>></U> Ric--You and =
I obviously will not come to an agreement about what tensionin in a felt ham=
mers is because of your above statement. I've gone out of my way twice to cl=
arify it.</STRONG><BR> This is not in itself a wide sweeping criticism=
against useing lacquer <BR>perse... it is exactly what it says it is... a c=
riticism of one <BR>particular mis-use of lacquer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> <STRONG>. >>>I'm not defensive&nbs=
p;I'm frustrated in trying to communicate a concept revolving around the wor=
d tension,so we could get on to something else.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG> </STRONG><BR><BR>>_I've heard lo=
ts and lots of voicing classes through the years...and<BR>> tried just ab=
out any trick in the book I dont find that you can<BR>> increase po=
wer by useing lacquer.... you can increase volume...<BR>> loudness. =
But thats a different matter._<BR>> _ >> Please define=
power_<BR>><BR>Difficult to define precisely... but it is a more encompa=
sing concept <BR>then loudness.... I get the sensation that it sort of like =
what happens <BR>when you add mass to a hammer and dont change anything else=
. You are not <BR>really making the hammer louder and brighter as you are ma=
king it louder <BR>and bigger. Sorry if words fail me here... but the =
effects are <BR>different, and I am certainly not the only one to notice.</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> <STRONG>>>Yes I have done  =
;experiments as weel & nticed this. I think it get louder and bigger bec=
ause of the increase in the fundamental frequency becoming more dominant, Wi=
th adding weight all the other higher parials seem to shift down in th=
e spectrum but still are carried by farther due to the stonger fundamsntal.<=
/STRONG><BR><BR>tively><BR>> We dont use heat pressed hammers... but t=
hey do require needling.<BR>> *>> You certainly do. It isn't just p=
ressure that makes the Renner <BR>> style hammer densified. I've seen the=
Wurzen felt. It's quite a soft a <BR>> springy felt & to get it to t=
he configuration of density you work with <BR>> requires both.<BR>> *<=
BR><BR>Well... I'll let you argue with the manufactures. I am not actu=
ally <BR>there when they are produced... but I am informed these are not hea=
t <BR>pressed. They term the process cold pressing. Certainly ar=
e not the <BR>kind of heat pressed hammers we've run into from earlier=
on in Japan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>>> I appreciated Ray Negrons post about cl=
arifying what cold press means. Perhaps they don't need heat to get the glue=
to set but every other maker I know uses some & No not like Japanese /A=
sian hammers</STRONG><BR><BR>><BR>> > These extremes o=
f heat & pressure also work against the way felt is<BR>> > made. T=
he springy wool is now made unspringy or less resilience.<BR>><BR>There i=
s no extreme heat being used. Felting itself makes wool less <BR=
>resilient... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>>> <STRONG>That's what I've been saying as well.</=
STRONG> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> > heck you can felt down to a damned hard bloc=
k of wool if <BR>you carry on long enough.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>>> <STRONG>Agreed. that brand is the Petrified fel=
t Hammer company. Seen many</STRONG><BR><BR>> I'll defer to David Stanwoo=
d and Andre on how hammer felt is made... but<BR>> the pressure bit is ki=
nd of a hand in hand thing with the felting process.<BR>> *Th=
e pressure I'm speaking of happens in the press<BR>> *<BR><BR>And just ho=
w is this pressure in conflict with the felting process in <BR>general.</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> ><STRONG> It is in conlict only in extrem=
es & that has always been my objection. Where I & ma=
ny others take issue is that having to needle any hammer 100 times =
; as counter productive & intuitive to the way felt is made as well=
as hammers & tone</STRONG><BR><BR>> ....>>>Ok Tension means=
stress & stretch or pull right? Compression <BR>> means compaction o=
r densification right?<BR>> Now I want to make a statement th=
at you can prove for yourself. <BR>> /_The Ronsen hammers is the most ten=
sioned hammer in the world._/<BR>> & No I'm not a salesman.<BR><BR>Te=
nsion goes in more then one direction Dale. Tho Ronsens may (tho I <BR=
>can not confirm this) have more of this in one particular direction then <B=
R>any other hammer... that hardly makes them the most tensioned hammers in <=
BR>the world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>>> Perhaps we'll continue to disagree abou=
t this (tension) but consider that felt can be come so stretched it can rip =
across the crown during Mnaufacture. Would you call that extreme tension in =
the felt? As I define tension ,it is. Thats all I've been trying to say. I d=
idn't even say it was the whole story.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG> I'd like oto get farther in o=
ur discussion of hammers to increse my own understanding & perhaps other=
s.</STRONG><BR><BR><BR>> If the felt on your preferred hammer=
is really stretched & <BR>> tensioned, as you keep referring to,then=
if you should be able to cut <BR>> the hammer open from the strike point=
to the molding with a razor& it <BR>> should immediately & drami=
tically bloom open. Especially in the Bass & <BR>> tenor hammers.<BR>=
> This is exactly what happens with the Ronsen hammers. All =
of the <BR>> hammers Ronsen makes will do this but the Wurzen felt most o=
f all. <BR>> I've been at this for years now. I've cut open all kinds of =
hammers & <BR>> I don't believe the phenomena you refer to as tension=
is what your <BR>> using to get tone it's the compaction or compression.=
Most hammers <BR>> will blomm open to some degree but it's not usually d=
ramtic. Isaac <BR>> hammers will also do this to some degree.<BR>>&nbs=
p; The point is that a stretched elastic felt around a hammer molding =
<BR>> should equal incresed springiness & it does.<BR>>  =
; Also the hammer your using is a _/fine hammer/_ & gets a fine tone <BR=
>> but I do not believe it is under much tension as I've expressed <BR>&g=
t; it,It's under compaction & the inherent springiness of the felt is <B=
R>> your ally invoicing & I know that we agree on this.<BR><BR><BR>Su=
re... if you want to call that compaction go ahead... but seems to me <BR>th=
at when a compacted peice of felt is stretched around a hammer <BR>moulding =
it is bound to have more tensions in more directions then a <BR>less compact=
ed piece of felt that is strectched perhaps more in the <BR>single direction=
around the molding.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>>> <STRONG>Maybe your right. I did say compaction =
& a better word is compression. If the felt has legitimate com=
pression then it should have a spring back characteristic. Can it=
be proved? If so then this has the effect of the battery needling your=
speaking of.</STRONG><BR><BR>In anycase... the fact that needling up =
actually works for tensioned <BR>hammers, and apparently works best for felt=
of a certain density and <BR>quality (read wool strand thickness and consis=
tancy...and probably a few <BR>other things as well...) pressed at at certai=
n degree of pressue. You <BR>simply can not get that increase in power when =
needling up the Ronsens I <BR>am accustomed too... (I have installed some se=
ts that were produced <BR>about 25 years ago).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> <STRONG> The Ronsen hammer=
these days is evolved to a whole different level. We used them way back as =
well & the hammer today is a different variety</STRONG>. They, in a=
nycase... wouldnt respond thus. In fact <BR>over stressed Royal George=
hammers would react more needling up then <BR>those Ronsens did... but then=
the Ronsens (those in any case) were not <BR><STRONG>made for this purpose.=
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG> >. I believe that is true acorrding to=
Rays recent post.</STRONG><BR><BR>><BR> Regards --Dale=
<BR><BR></FONT><BR>Cheers<BR>RicB</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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