<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2668" name=GENERATOR><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"></o:SmartTagType> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=white> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Terry and List</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think you are going back to the = drawing board Broadwood used in the mid 1800's. The grand they provided for Beethoven = would be a good starting point. There is so much data to be construed out of that = piano and interpolated with modern conventions such as Bessemer processed = steel strings for strength and modern cast frame. In the Beethoven piano the = frame was "constructed" as was most of the Broadwood pianos up to the one (No.857) = I had. Chickering it was, I believe, who first used a cast frame. Broadwoods = (and others) quickly followed. Broadwoods developed the "barless" grand = frame which permitted of a continuous bridge up to the bass/tenor break. This = was, however, an otherwise standard overstrung piano. Terry is, I take = it, trying to break with convention and develop a new approach to grand = construction using a style derived from that early Broadwood concept. One may ponder = the possibilities here of such a concept - the vast length, the innovative = scaling using the modern steel-cored single covered (please!)bass and = steel treble strings. Include the possibility of quatro stringing as did = Broadwood at one time. Even the "bent side" concept could be scrapped in favour of a triangulated plan. Let me throw in an idea here based on a small = Harpsichord sitting at this moment under my S&S"A". All the stringing is = "parallel" but the bass strings instead of running parallel to the direction of the = keys, are at an angle to them. The "spine" is still along the bass strings side = and the open side with its prop on the treble end, but the keys are at, maybe, = 45deg. to the spine. The pianist's hands will be seen by the audience even if = the piano spine is parallel to the cyclorama.  Bizarre? Well... = why not?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Go on from there!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards from a dusky and balmy evening = in the Downland Village.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Michael G.(UK)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 15, 2005 = 2:08 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Piano Design = Question</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#000000>Hi Richard - Perhaps I did not make my question clear = enough. I think your answer targeted conventional piano design. I'm = trying to step out of the box. I am asking about designing a piano with no = limits on size or shape. As such, overstringing to maximize bass string = length has no merit - just make the piano longer if you want a longer bass string. = Also, putting the bass bridge in the center of the board also looses its = meaning, because you can make the case any size or shape you want - so even if = the bass bridge is down at one end of the scale, you can stretch = the case (make it bulbous if you want) down there and provide the = bass bridge with any amount of soundboard area you find advantageous. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#000000>And BTW, with a conventional piano design, I don't = know that maximizing the length of bass strings is so singly important. I think = more important is to achieve a good compromise between length and = mobility (i.e. and looooong bass string with a 5mm backscale won't do any piano = any good). </FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#000000>Terry Farrell</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"></SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard = Cromwell wrote:</SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 = size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In my = minimal studies of piano design the benefits that overstrung scales provide over a = straight scale are pretty simple<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial">Overstringing maximizes the length of the bass strings while being able to position = the bass bridge closer to the center/most flexible part of the soundboard.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2><SPAN = style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is = important as the amplitude of the lower frequencies produced by the bass strings = move the board more and thus benefit from the additional throw available closer = to the center.  I am not going to bother to go into why maximizing the = length of the bass strings is important, because if you don�t know� you = shouldn�t be reading this.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I think = that the designers of old felt that the substantial benefits yielded in the = quality of tone produced in the bass section of the piano by overstinging far = outweigh any resulting deficiencies (which there are of course) in the tenor or = anywhere else for that matter� which makes sense to me.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000080><FONT = size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P></DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To those who delve = into piano design (and loose sleep over such things)......</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My understanding is = <FONT color=#800000>that</FONT> the bass/tenor area of the typical = modern grand piano soundboard poses a challenge from the design standpoint = because in pretty much the same location you want a very flexible soundboard = for the bass and a stiffer soundboard for the lower tenor. This necessitates = compromise.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes - is that true?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wouldn't a = straight-strung arrangement work better? Seems to me that designing a piano with = performance being the #1 criteria, a straight strung (or parallel or whatever - = you know what I mean) arrangement would offer the designer the luxury of = designing the soundboard to meet the needs of the various sections of the = string scale - and not having to make the same area suit two different needs. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now keep in mind that = I ask this question strictly from the performance (musical) standpoint and not = the standpoint of how well a design might sell. I believe it is the case = that one can design a piano with longer bass strings for a given piano = length with an overstrung design - if the marketing department is put in = charge of piano design. I'm talking about eliminating the marketing department = and the accounting department and just dealing with how to build the most acoustically pleasing piano. (I know, silly idea.) Now rememeber - = no marketing - we can make the case ANY shape we want (we don't have to = have a flat side on the bass side)!</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Without having to = concern yourself with factory sales, would you rather design a = straight-strung or overstrung piano? Which approach give the designer more freedom to = design an optimal piano?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks. Tomorrow in = the shop will pivot on this.....    ;-)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">FWIW: Seems to me that = straight-strung offers significant design benefits because each area = of the string scale occupies a unique area of the soundboard - and hence = that area of the soundboard can be designed to optimize the performance of = that area of the string scale.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Terry = Farrell</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE= ></BODY></HTML>