<html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=US-ASCII"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple> <div class=Section1> The whole thing has gotten rather ridiculous.  My initial statement was in response to the claim that unfelted backscales will = result in a "sizzle like riveted cymbals" and that sound is = characteristic of all Grotrians.  That is simply untrue, a misstatement, product of misinformation or carelessness.  I don't know which.  It is = not a matter of opinion or taste.  The sound of riveted cymbals is unmistakable = (I was drummer once).  It is nothing like the sound emanating from an = unlisted backscale.  I simply pointed that out and thought that I would be remiss, knowing otherwise, not to.  When the originator of the statement responded = in a weaselly fashion rather than being big enough to admit the error, I concocted a = response riddled with sarcasm.  Not particularly proud of that, but some = people bring out the devil in me.  I do, however, take full = responsibility. (-:   Needless to say, I think we should all be big enough to handle = it when called on our misstatements.  It is, after all, a list designed to = provide information (hopefully good information), so when something appears that = isn’t, I think we have a responsibility to correct and clarify.  To go out = of our way to defend our errors simply puts us, as the historian Barbara = Tuchman so aptly pointed out, on a march of folly.     David Love davidlovepianos@comcast.net   -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On = Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 12:41 PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: RE: Grotrian Steinwegs - to list or not to = list?   OK...   I went back to the original post, then Ric's then = David's.     Ric's:  "straightforward opinion, stated in a sort off = hand manner"   The length of the backscale, plus the other unmuted non singing lengths, plus the fact that the entire backscale of these instruments is = unmuted yeilds a very predominant sizzle sound into the entire sound = mix. Not my favorite sound personally. Sort of sound like one of those = rivetet cymbals. Otherwise I've always found Grotrians to be lacking = something I've never really been able to put my finger on.  Nicely = made instruments I suppose, but nothing there that grabs you and = moves the earth under your feet.   David's:  "a little confrontational response, imho"   Could have done without the "I don't think = so"   A predominant "sizzle" sound like cymbals with rivets???  I don't think so. Such a sound would be wholly unacceptable and I've never heard = anything like that from a Grotrian or any other similarly designed = piano.  Length of the backscale or lack of cloth in the backscale or in other non = speaking areas will not yield any sizzle sound or sound of riveted = cymbals.  If you hear that I would look for something else, like a loose piece of wire resting on a string.  If you get a bit too much overring of = sympathetics for your liking, then weave some cloth into the offending areas.  = Test for that by striking some staccato chords in various areas of the piano and listening for a bit of after echo.  How much is desirable is a matter = of taste.  Some people like a very dry and complete shutoff, some don't. After restringing I often don't put any cloth in until it's evident that the piano = needs it, unless I want the look of it.  The areas where you are most = likely to need it will be the bass and the low end of the tenor on some = pianos.  Rarely do I find the cloth necessary in the aliquot area of a = Steinway.  Most people insert the cloth more out of habit than need.   Clearly David's "I don't think so."  took Ric = aback and the tit for tat was on.     IMHO:  (note how I deftly used those 4 = letters)   Clearly no Grotrian Steinweg is going to have a sound like a = cymbal with rivets.     Ric said sort of like...meaning to me a little bit, kind of = like...   If we think about what the Baldwin SD10 sounded like at the high = end without any string felt in the tuning pin area...that is probably what Ric = is describing.   When Baldwin started doing that, I'm not sure...But that is not the sound I = want on that piano and I will always get some understring felt in there and/or stringing braid.   I wouldn't hesitate to mute off the bass, tenor section backscale of a Grotrian either.   That isn't the kind of sound I want.   How many pianos have that unmuted backscale?   If this is Grotrian's usual method they must have been looking for a different sound.     David I.   PS   Hopefully Conrad, you haven't been storing the flamesuits in New Orleans?                        ----- Original message = ---------------------------------------- From: "Ric Brekne" = <ricbrek@broadpark.no> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> Received: 9/26/2005 9:47:30 AM Subject: Grotrian Steinwegs - to list or not to = list?     >Michael:   >I wouldnt worry about it.  Been through this a number = of times already >with David and its really no sweat.  Pay no attention = to these silly spats.   >As for your Grotrian.  It was not designed to be a = Steinway, so if you >are to stick to their idea of piano sound then muting any of = the >backscale lengths is simply innappropriate. Changing that = will make the >thing sound other then how Grotrians are supposed to = (according to their >makers) sound.  By all means if you feel you like the = sound better by >clothing off as I mentioned in my first post, then do = so.  Just dont be >suprised to get hit on about it by the guy who comes after = you and has a >hair up his butt about that kinda thing :)  The most = extreme change of a >Grotrian I ever saw was one that was rebuilt at the = Bechstein factory.  >All backlengths muted off and the front segments were = totally >Bechstein-ized.  Most curious sound I ever heard from a = piano really.  >Half and Half.  The owner loved it.  I thought it = weird but kept that to >myself.   >Tell you what you do.  Use masking tape to mask off the backscale >temporarilly.  If you like the resultant sound then = braid it off.   >Cheers >RicB     >..........   >Michael Gambles writes;   >Oh dear! Oh dear-o-dear! I truly and earnestly had no = intention of starting >up this type of cor-res-pon-dence. I originally asked.... = The Grotrian >Steinweg, so similar in design and length of backscale, has = no listing cloth >other than some thick felt under the backscale in the bass = section. Having >just restrung my S&S 'A' and bearing in mind there's "bearing felt" just >before the hitch pins under the hitch loop twists, what does everyone think. >Should I list or not list?     >_______________________________________________= >pianotech list info: = https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives _______________________________________________= pianotech list info: = https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives </div> </body> </html>