<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, glad I caught this posting. To = answer your question; 20% is perfect in the bass for me, because I strip mute the = bass, tune all the single notes, and then pull out the strip and tune unisons. = However, when I get to the plain wire strings, I'm pitch raising unisons as I go = up. Now, if a piano has all the notes on one side of the note you're tuning = already pulled up to pitch, then a 25% overpull is the appropriate amount for = the entire piano. (With the SAT, the trick is knowing where to sample them). The = only time 33% overpull is used is when you're pitch raising the single strings = without pulling in the unisons as you go. And even then, the way to do it is to = tune the temperament at a 33% overpull, and as you go up stretch the octaves = until they have a beat in them, leveling off at you get to the top. Two whole = different techniques, two whole different overpull percentages. Perhaps I'm wrong, = or someone will argue that I'm wrong, and that's fine. I've just done it = that way, and it worked out almost perfectly. I prefer using a SAT, because that guarantees me that I'll be within two cents without having to work hard = at all. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>    But, 33% percent is = necessary if you do it the "old" way, the way people did it before ETDs. I don't = think it would ever be right if you were using an ETD and pulling in unisons as = you go. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>    Hope that clears it = up. </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 22, 2002 = 8:56 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pitch Raises ... = Multiple Passes?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>You didn't answer my question!  :-)   = Yes, my norm is to do a two pass pitch raise for anything more than 60 or 70 = cents flat (although on this Winter, I did in fact pitch raise it in one = pass - don't tell anyone!). But that was not the question. Let's say we have = a piano that is 30 cents flat. The tune unisons as you go approach would = suggest that something like 20% overpull in bass, 25% in tenor, and 33% overpull in = treble areas is appropriate to get you to target pitch. If you strip mute the = piano for your pitch raise and only tune the center strings, then pull out = the mute felt and tune unisons, how might that affect your selected overpull percentages? Thanks.<BR><BR>Terry Farrell<BR>  <BR>----- Original = Message ----- <BR>From: "Kevin E. Ramsey" <<A = href="mailto:ramsey@extremezone.com">ramsey@extremezone.com</A>><BR>= To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:04 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... = Multiple Passes?<BR><BR><BR>Terry, that's a good question. Most of the time = when I see something like your high performance Winter that's that flat, I figure = it would be safer to do two pitch raises. I feel better spreading that = much tension out over the whole instrument rather than loading up one = section tuning from bass to treble. I always strip mute no matter what I'm = doing, it just seems easier to pull it out than to move mutes constantly. <BR>    If you were to try pitch raising one of these = things that much and hit it right on the money in one pass, I don't think = you'd have much luck because the different sections of the piano are going to = react differently depending on the thickness of the plate and stiffness of = the soundboard, and other intangibles. You could certainly get it pretty = close though. <BR>    I would strip it off and do two really = quick pitch raises, the first just slightly higher than in tune, pull in the = unisons, and then do an equally quick regular pitch raise, then fine = tune. I don't like replacing strings in spinets too much myself. I remember = trying to do it the way you mentioned a few times when I was starting out, = carefully recalculating the single wire flatness for a 33% overpull as I went = up. I pulled in the unisons, and it was close enough to get there in a = second pass, but it was more work than it was worth, I thought. <BR>  ----- = Original Message ----- <BR>  From: Farrell <BR>  To: <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> <BR>  = Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 5:18 AM<BR>  Subject: Re: Pitch Raises = ... Multiple Passes?<BR><BR><BR>  Hello Kevin. I was raising the = pitch of a massive high performance Winter spinet yesterday a full half-step. And = I was thinking that it would go faster if I were to strip mute the piano, PR = just the middle strings, then go back a do the unisons. Do you do that in = the plain wire sections? How do you find that approach affects your overpull = percentage needed? Thanks.<BR><BR>  Terry Farrell<BR>    = <BR>  ----- Original Message ----- <BR>  From: "Kevin E. Ramsey" <<A = = href="mailto:ramsey@extremezone.com">ramsey@extremezone.com</A>><BR>=   To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>  Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:30 PM<BR>  Subject: Re: Pitch = Raises ... Multiple Passes?<BR><BR><BR>  Joe, glad it works for you, = however, I find that the bass requires a twenty percent over-pull. Perhaps our = methods differ; during a pitch raise, I tune the single bass strings and one = string of each bi-chord first, then I pull out the strip and tune unisons by = ear.  I'm also tuning the bass first, ala Sanderson. When I do a pitch = raise, I do it with a SAT (Gets you real close, real fast), so I do the bass = first. I can understand the 10% overpull thing only if I've already brought the = rest of the piano up first. <BR>      Please clarify.<BR>    ----- Original Message ----- <BR>    From: Joe And Penny Goss <BR>    = To: <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> = <BR>    Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:46 PM<BR>    = Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?<BR><BR><BR>    Kevin,<BR>    If the bass is about 30 cents flat I want = to raise the note about three cents sharp ( about 10% ) of pitch. So with = a SATlll that raises the pitch 25%  that would result in too much = over pull for me so I will set the over pull for 12 cents and roll the program = into the machine.<BR>    I take only one measurement at A2 to = arrive at my over pull. Works very well for me.<BR>    I use the = 25% in the tenor and about C4 the 30% to the top then = retune.<BR>    On pianos 25% or less flat or sharp I use the Verituner 100 and its = 10% bass, 30% tenor,<BR>    and 36% treble and retune.<BR>    Joe Goss<BR>    <A = href="mailto:imatunr@srvinet.com">imatunr@srvinet.com</A><BR> &nbs= p;  <A = href="http://www.mothergoosetools.com">www.mothergoosetools.com</A><BR>=       ----- Original Message ----- <BR>      From: = Kevin E. Ramsey <BR>      To: <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> <BR>      Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 = 7:40 PM<BR>      Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... = Multiple Passes?<BR><BR><BR>      ><BR>      >     = All wound strings: 1/5 (Example: You test 10 notes, or so, and find<BR>      = them<BR>      > about 30 cents flat. You would set your ETD to +6 cents sharp and = tune<BR>      = those<BR>      > strings to that = setting.)<BR><BR><BR>        &nbs= p; Here's another little brain saver:  What if you're pitch raising = a piano and want to do a 20% overpull in the bass, and it's, say, 28 cent's = flat. (let's see, one fifth of twenty eight would be ......... ah........ ah........)  <BR><BR>          Take = 28, and double it for 56. Move the decimal point over to the left one place. <BR><BR>           = 5.6 is 1/20th of 28. = <BR><BR>          At least, that's how I do it. <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>