<HTML>List, I don't know who started the thread or where it came from but these questions come up often.  I have 2 apprentices who both think as a lot of people do:  they just can't get over the idea of 2 or more passes being required in virtually all tunings.  The answer to "How much does the piano have to be *off* for it to need 2 tunings?" is, 1 iota or any amount at all. If I'm doing a concert tuning and the initial A is right on pitch, I still may do 3 passes.  To think that any ETD or method will raise the pitch of a piano 1/2 step and have it be "in tune" is just wishful thinking.  Remember what the late George Defebaugh used to say,  "You can tune a piano a lot faster, easier and better twice than you can fight with it once".  I wouldn't ever start to even hope that a piano raised 1/2 step would be in tune in any less than 4 passes, yet I could get all of them done in as little as one hour.  So could any number of other people I know who write on this list. Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin <A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A> </HTML>