<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=US-ASCII"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN = class=050413804-21082004>somebody posted... </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN class=050413804-21082004> <DIV><STRONG>The attack and the decay were carefully excised, leaving = the middle body of the tone, with the premise (dangerous thing to have in pure = research) that without these, especially the attack, one would be hard pressed = (like some hammers) to tell the difference, say, between a clarinet and an = oboe.  After all this work, they rounded up the usual = suspects...er...experiment volunteer subjects, and found that indeed, most of them couldn't tell = the difference.  UNTIL, that is, a musician spoke up and asked if the = volunteer subjects had any idea of what these instruments sounded like in the = first place!!</STRONG></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN class=050413804-21082004>I = remember this back in the 60's in music class as a seventh grader??   They = said by the miracle of modern recording techniques you could not tell the = difference between a piano tone and clarinets unless you heard heard it from = beginning to end.   so the attack and release was = "excised".    But sfw ?   (so freaking what?)   well t hose = were the days before 'relevance' had priorities in debate or inquiry = even.   Actually the synthesizer people were vERy much interested but I was way = too young for that.   And yes I remember something about the = volunteers couldn't tell the instruments apart</SPAN> <SPAN = class=050413804-21082004> but I still wonder at that because as a seventh grader I could = sure tell the instruments apart if they were recorded naturally.  That = is what the whole tape was about.  Back in the 5th grade we all heard = Peter Wolf and Carnival of Animals so we all knew what the oboe sounded like, = it was the.......   ........   ummmm duh I = forgot...</SPAN>(<SPAN class=050413804-21082004>the flute was a bird I = tink)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004>     ---ric... = (the "i" stands for "I will be reminded")  </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004>       &nbs= p;           &nbsp= ;<A href="http://www.pnotec.com">www.pnotec.com</A> </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004> <P><FONT face=Arial>"Nothing is a waste of time if you use the = experience wisely." <SPAN class=050413804-21082004> </SPAN>Auguste Rodin = (1840-1917); French sculptor. </FONT></P> </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=050413804-21082004></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr = align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On = Behalf Of </B>Barbara Richmond<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2004 10:00 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: backchecks, magical = mystery tour<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK, all of you who ever attended the = PTG seminar class taught by Dr. Tom Rossing (a physicist) at Northern Illinois = University back in the mid to late 80s raise your hands.  (Were = you there Stan?)  If I remember correctly, he played recordings of = instruments (or maybe just the piano) without the attack.  The piano (without the = attack) sounded remarkably like a pipe organ.  It was = amazing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Barbara Richmond, RPT</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jstan40@sbcglobal.net = href="mailto:jstan40@sbcglobal.net">J. Stanley Ryberg</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2004 = 8:02 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: backchecks, = magical mystery tour</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="comic sans ms" color=#0000bf>Isaac Oleg = writes:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>I stay on the concept of the synchronism or a sequence that works<BR>better for energy reasons. The noise indeed is "masked" in = the attack<BR>tone, that is what we do when tuning.<BR>I have seen = experiments where the action noise and attack noise was<BR>separed from the = tone, and if the tone of the piano was heard without<BR>it it was barely = recognized by an audience.<BR></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="comic sans ms" color=#c00000>While I am = not in a position just now to verify the following, I remember speaking with = an engineering professor who was a TA (teaching assistant) during the Fetcher-Munson studies (which had to be mid-50s at the = latest).  One of the items from that study that we encounter daily is the existence = on our stereo systems of a "loudness control" switch, or in some cases, a = pot or slider.  It was determined by the study that the human ear, at = soft volume levels, loses high and low frequencies more quickly than = mid-range frequencies, thus the adjustment to bring both ends of the spectrum = up for use at low volume levels (the Fletcher-Munson Curve).  Of = course, we just flip the switch and leave it there, but that's a whole other story!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000>A part of = the study which I believe was NOT included in the final version, was several = months of work painstakingly editing (cutting and splicing) audio tape, with = different instruments (pretty much the entire orchestra) playing the same = note, with differences in register accounted for by lower instruments playing = lower octaves, upper instruments upper octaves.  The attack and the = decay were carefully excised, leaving the middle body of the tone, with = the premise (dangerous thing to have in pure research) that without = these, especially the attack, one would be hard pressed (like some hammers) = to tell the difference, say, between a clarinet and an oboe.  After all = this work, they rounded up the usual suspects...er...experiment volunteer = subjects, and found that indeed, most of them couldn't tell the difference.  UNTIL, that is, a musician spoke up and asked if = the volunteer subjects had any idea of what these instruments sounded = like in the first place!!!  Back to the drawing board, but this time, = the same experiment with music students--and the premise fell apart completely.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000>This is = not exactly the same as what Isaac is relating, but it does seem to = obtain...interesting parallel, in any case!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c00000>Regards,</FONT></STRONG></DIV><BR><BR> <DIV>Stan Ryberg <BR>Barrington IL = <BR><U>jstan40@sbcglobal.net</U></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></= HTML>