<HTML><HEAD> <META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; cha= rset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff= f"> <DIV> <DIV>In<FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=3><BR><BR>> = <BR>><BR>>Ric wrote<BR>  Lacquer DOES ruin a hammer from the per= spective of any<BR>>     future needling-up. But of course= it does not <<ruin>> a hammer from<BR>>     s= ome other perspective. <BR>><BR>>   >>*Yeah but Ric* i= f lacquer ruins a hammer then it does sound like <BR>> condemnation. A la= cquered hammer done properly so it so the tone opens <BR>> up with playin= g time is a different way of getting the tone up.<BR>>><STRONG>It ruin= s the style hammers you"re using perhaps but Ruin implies to make usele= ss. I have a lot of lacquerd hammers out there with lacquer in them sounding= just grand. None of these hammers are made in the same fashion as the ones = you are accustomed to. I'm just trying to make the distinction.<BR>.</STRONG= ><BR>Read again Dale.  I pointed out that from the very specific perspe= ctive <BR>of being able to needle up a hammer... lacquer ruins a hammer. Thi= s is <BR>true, and its undeniable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><STRONG>>> It ruins the hammer you ar= e accustomed too</STRONG>  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>That says nothing about how to get from one= <BR>place to another in some different fashion... much less draw any value = <BR>judjements.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>>..<STRONG> Ok as long as were &nbs= p;clear that were talking about the reener style of hammer.</STRONG><BR><BR>= >      Juice in the right place can increase power; in the= wrong place can<BR>>     > actually reduce it. Same wi= th needles.<BR>><BR>>     I dont think Juice in the rig= ht place can increase power... only more<BR>>     tension = can do that... at least as I understand the word power. <BR>>  &nbsp= ;  Juice<BR>>     can increase volume... loudness if = you will. <BR>><BR>> >> Care to help me understand this? Really = it SOunds like semantics to <BR>> me. Have you ever tried this technique = successfully ?<BR>>  I've done ti both ways. Power is power: defined= it means volumne or <BR>> sound pressure with a changing balance of part= ials & different levels.<BR><BR><U>I've heard lots and lots of voicing c= lasses through the years...and <BR>tried just about any trick in the book&nb= sp; I dont find that you can <BR>increase power by useing lacquer.... you ca= n increase volume... <BR>loudness.  But thats a different matter.</U></= FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><U> <FONT size=4>  >> Ple= ase define power</FONT></U><BR><BR><BR>>     Juice raises = the stiffness of a hammer (somewhat selectively,<BR>>     = > depending upon where it is applied), but does not need to reduce<BR>&gt= ;     its<BR>>     > resilience, if it i= s used to stiffen fibers rather than glue them<BR>>     &g= t; together.<BR>><BR>>     I dont really see how adding= any significant amount of any type of<BR>>     hardner ca= n avoid reducing a hammer resilience. The nature of how<BR>>   =   felt<BR>>     is made to begin with rather dictates= this. If you coat a fiber with<BR>>     hardner, you dont= just make it stiffer in one direction... you<BR>>     mak= e it<BR>>     stiffer in all directions... longitudinally = as well.  Not to<BR>>     mention how<BR>>  &= nbsp;  the felting itself is affected. <BR><FONT size=4>> </F= ONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>Ric</FONT><BR><U>> >&g= t;> This is the conceptual point I seem to have trouble communicating. <B= R>> If  a softer hammer has to much resilience I need to decrease it= so I <BR>> add a stiffening solution.  What I need is limited resil= ience. So do you.<BR>>    You also have limited resilience With= the harder pressed <BR>> hammers because they are made with more heat &a= mp; pressure actually <BR>> reduces resilience as well only one hammer pr= oduce darker sounds <BR>> initially & the other brighter & someti= mes choked sounds. The harder <BR>> version usually have less initial spr= inginess than the former</U>.<BR><BR><BR>We dont use heat pressed hammers...= but they do require needling. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4><STRONG>>> You certain= ly do. It isn't just pressure that makes the Renner style hammer densif= ied. I've seen the Wurzen felt. It's quite a soft a springy felt & to ge= t it to the configuration of density you work with requires both. <BR></STRO= NG></FONT><BR>>    These extremes of heat & pressure also w= ork against the way felt is <BR>> made. The springy wool is now made unsp= ringy or less resilience.<BR><BR>I'll defer to David Stanwood and Andre on h= ow hammer felt is made... but <BR>the pressure bit is kind of a hand in hand= thing with the felting process.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>  <STRONG>The pressure I'm speaking of= happens in the press<BR></STRONG><BR>>    I see stiffness as s= tiffness. If I have the same stiffness or <BR>> springiness with a modera= tely lacquered hammers as I do with a <BR>> moderately hard pressed hamme= r. I will have a similar tone but not exact.<BR>>  I want to save th= at one for the next post. It's Friday after all  <BR>> Regards.<BR><= BR>And I have come to think that stiffness is not just stiffness... that <BR= >there are other factors involved then what a steril simplified physics <BR>= concept can account for... which I suppose accounts for that little <BR>diff= erence we all seem willing to admit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3> <STRONG> >>I agree<BR></STRONG>= <BR>>   DalePs<BR>>  I want to talk tension next</FONT>= </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>....>>>Ok Tension m= eans stress & stretch or pull right? Compression means compaction or den= sification right? </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>  Now I want to make a = statement that you can prove for yourself. <EM><U>The Ronsen hammers is the = most tensioned hammer in the world.</U></EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>& No I'm not a sale= sman. </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>  If the felt on your p= referred hammer is really stretched & tensioned, as you keep referring t= o,then if you should be able to cut the hammer open from the strike point to= the molding with a razor& it should immediately & dramitically bloo= m open. Especially in the Bass & tenor hammers. </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>   This is exactly= what happens with the Ronsen hammers. All of the hammers Ronsen makes will = do this but the Wurzen felt most of all. I've been at this for years now. I'= ve cut open all kinds of hammers & I don't believe the phenomena you ref= er to as tension is what your using to get tone it's the compaction or compr= ession. Most hammers will blomm open to some degree but it's not usually dra= mtic. Isaac hammers will also do this to some degree.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>  The point is that a s= tretched elastic felt around a hammer molding should equal incresed spr= inginess & it does.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4>  Also the hammer your = using is a <U><EM>fine hammer</EM></U> & gets a fine tone but I do not b= elieve it is under much tension as I've expressed it,It's under compaction &= amp; the inherent springiness of the felt is your ally invoicing & I kno= w that we agree on this.<BR></FONT><BR><BR>Dont get me wrong in all this fol= ks... I'm not like <<down>> on the <BR>whole lacquer tradtion he= re... tho I do obviously personally prefer the <BR>tensioned hammer.  I= /am/ concerned about misuse of chemicals of <BR>course... which is why I br= ought all this up... but that applies to <BR>mis-use of needles as well when= it comes down to it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><STRONG>>>i am concerned with the mis= use of chemicals as well & if you've heard nothing else the right hammer= though it be perhaps softer doesn't need much but tolerates it very we= ll without being <EM><U>ruined. More pre-voicing & regulation comes befo= re any juice or needling. That every one agrees on.</U></EM></STRONG></FONT>= </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4><STRONG>  I'm also conc= erned about the mis-information or lack of clear understanding  of term= s & definitions applied to a product that  don't them possess = ie <U>tension</U> or <U>maximum resiliensce</U> which is why I chimed in on = this thread.</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4><STRONG>  </STRONG>Rega= rds--Dale</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=3><FONT size=4><BR></FONT= ><BR>>  <BR>><BR>>     Erwins Pianos Restoratio= ns<BR>>     4721 Parker Rd.<BR>>     Mod= esto, Ca 95357<BR>>     209-577-8397<BR>>   &= nbsp; Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales<BR>>     = www.Erwinspiano.com<BR>></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>