<HTML>In a message dated 7/4/2002 3:59:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cadunn@vt2000.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj:re: hammers Date:7/4/2002 3:59:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time From:<A HREF="mailto:cadunn@vt2000.com">cadunn@vt2000.com</A> Reply-to:<A HREF="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> To:<A HREF="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> Sent from the Internet        Hi Clair</BLOCKQUOTE>         Jims point of view is right on for several reasons I'd like to attempt to clarify.     First the hard soft discussion could be framed by the average consensus of how much needling or juicing a certain brand/style of hammer generally requires. Simply take a poll And it would become more or less clear.    Keep in mind however that this issue can be compounded by the fact that hammer making isn't like making aunt Sallies cookies recipe which can be precisely measured and quantified.     The quality,density and stiffness of the felt sheets ordered to make hammers with can vary from sheet to sheet and  does cause variability in the sets of hammers produced. Coupled with variables in hot pressed hammers, which use steam to densify the felt,densities can and do vary.   By the way the distinction between hot and cold pressing Is simply that one method uses steam or moisture to densify the felt around the molding and the other uses pressure.     However ALL hammer Makers cauls are heated to help cure the glue. A 100 degrees or more.    An example of variables would be a set of Renner blues that instead of needling I needed to juice the bass and low tenor a  bit to get the tone desired. I've only needled these hammers lightly once in 15 years under heavy teacher use by the way. Also this was back when Lloyd Meyer was just starting Renner USA  and he was trying get his product consistency where he wanted it.     However I submit that this is not the experience many have had. I think the Renner concept and the technical community will agree that by in large this is a hammer that will require some extensive needling and the resultant tone pleases many.     Too hard/Stiff hammers abound in most makes of pianos and the resulting tone is harsh and unpleasant but primarily because they're not voiced well enough.    Any hammer brand should not get a bad rap because of lack of effort or ineffienct  methods  the don't optimize the potential of hammer or piano.    The other end of the hammer density spectrum are hammers that are pressed differently and are what I refer to a more uniform density hammers. There are only three I know of and each is different. I call them this because if one probes them with needles thru the side or shoulders the resistance of the felt is the same or similar whereas hot pressed hammers are extremely stiff right above the molding.    The Ronsen hammer I've written about before and is my usual hammer of choice. To me it more closely resembles the density of 1920 Stwy hammers. This is a unique hammer in that I do little voicing to get the desired tone I like to hear right out of the box.  I often lightly juice the bass with light solutions to get more tonal growl and bite and at times do some light needling in octave 4 but only a few stitches mind you. The Ronsen has different felts, the Abel felt and the Bacon Felt company felt. Which you use is a matter of preference. Post me privately if you need more info or go to Ronsens web site     The Isaac hammer is pressed in a custom made unique press which has the effect of wrapping the felt around the molding and it is very much a spring. I frequently had similar voicing experiences as the Ronsen except I usually needed more but weak solutions of juice. That being said it was difficult to detect the any juice was used in these hammers when probed with needles and didn't inhibit there long term voicing stability or ability to be voiced.     The Stwy factory Hammers are probably the softest of the three but I must tell you I've used two sets recently One on A A -3 And on an 1920's Stwy L I just rebellied. Though I used a good deal of variable Lacquer solutions on the L the piano had a dynamic range that was awesome. I am concerned somewhat about voicing stability when I use a good deal of lacquer but there are ways to voice these hammers effectively with needles and also lacquer can be washed out of the hammer and away from the strike point with acetone. Hmmmmmmm An acetone flush?  The Stwy A I did so little to get a fabulous tone. Variablity??  See what I mean? Stwy uses Two different felts Bacon and American felt company. The American felt is very soft but I've heard the Concert techs love it for it's adjustably and I can see why but it's a lot more work. The results are however worth it.   I'm sure others can chime and clarify some of these points if I've not been clear which is  often the case.    Happy voicing Hope this helps    >>>>>>>> Dale Erwin>>>>>>>>    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Dale Erwin, et al. I have been following this hammer discussion closely because I will be "re-hammering" several pianos in the next couple of months (all pre 1930 pianos). I have picked up the Renner and Abel are hard hammers and for many folks, hard to set up. I would like to know who makes "softer" hammers--what Dale prefers. I think I would prefer these too. I have ordered a set of Abel Lights for a Brambach b.g. and would love to know what's in store for me re set up. Thanks much, Clair Clair's Piano Service http://www.vt2000.com/cps/ </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML>