<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I use a Kenmore model 42.14125 unit, = which has its own internal humidistat (so current draw is not a limitation).  The = total draw of the system is quite low, at 37W (0.33A), so it could be = plugged into a DC humidistat -- or the GE humidistat I use.  The default = humidity setpoint is something like 60%RH, so it would cycle on and off = satisfactorily with the under-piano humidistat.  There are much cheaper ultrasonic = units that don't have humidistats.  These would be even better suited for = being switched on and off by the under-piano humidistat -- at the end of a = very long extension cord, of course!  :-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 7:01 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What type of room humidifier are you = using? How many watts does it use? I think the H2 humidistats are rated up to 600 = watts. I have ran a Sears basement-type dehumidifier off a humidistat in the = past. That would solve your troubles for when you travel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=anrebe@zianet.com = href="mailto:anrebe@zianet.com">Andrew & Rebeca Anderson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 10:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>My wife and I regulate humidity (in winter) through = the whole house with two humidifiers and a gauge on a bookshelf by the = piano.  This requires some attentiveness, and is affected by outdoor = weather.  The problem comes when we travel.  We were away over the = holidays for two weeks and when we returned the humidity was in the high single digits.  The piano sounded horrible.  We got humidity up = in a few days and in two weeks I retuned.  We have developed a rather low-tolerance for out-of-tune.  <BR>The issue is = practicality.  Most customers will not go through the trouble of monitering RH and refilling, turning on/off their humidifiers on a daily basis.  = Once a piano is up to humidity, the DC will usually last a week often more, = it only has a small environment to keep-up.  The humidity migrates = through the wood, even in a grand piano pin torque is affected (closed lids do = help in extreme environments).  Buying a room humidifier that has a remote-control humidistat will cost more than a DC system, although = it would benefit all the wooden furniture too.  I have discussed this = with clients and some have chosen to get a cheap hardware-store = hygrometer and start running a room humidifier.  They last about halfway to = the next tuning and then want a DC system or believe they can tolerate the = effects on the piano.<BR><BR>Andrew Anderson<BR>Las Cruces, NM<BR><BR>At 06:40 = AM 1/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT = face=arial>I don't think anyone is questioning the effects of RH changes on the tuning of a = piano.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I'm with Sarah and = feel that proper full environment humidity control is the best way to go - = better than a full DC installation.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT = face=arial>I think where the arguement comes in is the fact that probably 99% of full = environment humidity control systems are improperly designed, = poorly functioning, turned off and windows opened up, turned off over the = holidays and summer, etc., etc. <BR> <BR>But this does not = change the fact that if one installs a proper full environment humidity = control system that holds the RH constant within a few percent, it will be = more effective than a full DC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT = face=arial>And don't forget that even if you hard-wire the DC system into the wall, who = is ever going to notice that the circuit breaker tripped 15 months ago and = the piano hasn't had any humidity control since that time?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>In my shop I have a = Sears basement-type dehumidifier. It keeps the shop right at 45% RH = (within a percent or two). I never varies. How in the world is a DC unit on = a piano in my shop going to work better, or do anything at all besides = vapor, dry, vapor, dry, vapor, dry, etc., etc.?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>So I guess the bottom line is that if one is willing = to set up a proper full environment humidity control system that holds the = RH constant within a few percent, that is the best way to go. From a practical standpoint, knowing that 90-some% of full environment = humidity control systems are not going to be real effective, the full = DC-type system is the way to go (they DO work quite well). And as someone = pointed out, from a practical standpoint a full DC-type system in a piano = which is in an environment modified by a full environment humidity control = systems is the best around. </FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Flame = Suite Tighly Zipped,</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Terry Farrell</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial size=2>----- = Original Message ----- </FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>From: "DIANE = HOFSTETTER" <<A = href="mailto:dianepianotuner@msn.com">dianepianotuner@msn.com</A>></= FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT><BR><FO= NT face=arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:51 = AM</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>Subject: Re: Where did the RH = Go</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial><BR></FONT><FONT face=arial size=2>> = Sarah,<BR>> <BR>> For fourteen years now my partner and I have been measuring and = graphing the <BR>> tuning on every piano immediately before we tune it.   We also record the <BR>> relative humidity and temperature most of the time, whether it has a <BR>> = Damppchaser installation or not, and if it is functioning correctly.<BR>> = <BR>> Then when we next tune the piano and record all the data again, we = have a <BR>> way of understanding how to service the piano to make the = tuning as stable <BR>> as possible.<BR>> <BR>> Over the years I = have had fun with a variety of experiments.  One day I <BR>> = arrived to tune a piano in a room that is routinely kept unheated with no = <BR>> climate control in the piano.  The maintenance people had = just turned on the <BR>> heat before I arrived and a stream of warm area = was shooting out of the <BR>> register about ten feet away.<BR>> = <BR>> I was dismayed; the heat should have been turned on hours = before.  I knew <BR>> the tuning could not be = reliable.  I went ahead and graphed the tuning.  As <BR>> soon as I = finished that graph, I remeasured the tuning and graphed it again. <BR>>   Then I remeasured and regraphed, and then = once again.  I ended up with a <BR>> graph showing four = distinctly separate lines of the tuning as it changed <BR>> with the = relative humidity and temperature for each line carefully recorded.<BR>> = <BR>> There is no question in my mind that changes in relative = humidity affect the <BR>> tuning dramatically and that a Damppchaser = system does an excellent job of <BR>> helping control that.  I have = numerous graphs to show it does.<BR>> <BR>> Diane<BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Diane Hofstetter<BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: "Sarah Fox" <<A = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">sarah@gendernet.org</A>><BR>> >Reply-To: Pianotech <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> = >To: "Pianotech" <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >Subject: Re: Where did the RH Go<BR>> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan = 2004 21:48:30 -0500<BR>> ><BR>> >Hi Don,<BR>> = ><BR>> > > I did not say your system didn't work. What I said was a DC = system would<BR>> > > work even better.<BR>> ><BR>> >Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  I don't mean to be = argumentative on this point.  <BR>> >I'm<BR>> >really asking a = question here:  Have you (or has anyone else) done<BR>> = >measurements with a good, accurate hygrometer on a complete DC grand<BR>> >installation, during dry ambient conditions, showing that = humidity is <BR>> >indeed<BR>> >evenly distributed all over the soundboard, both under and on top, and in<BR>> >the action cavity?  Also, have the same measurements been done inside the<BR>> >piano with a closed lid and inside the action = cavity during predominantly<BR>> >dehumidifying periods?  In = other words, are DC's claims fully <BR>> >substantiated,<BR>> = >as determined empirically with a hygrometer?  I've heard lots of = claims<BR>> >regarding stability of pitch.  That's all = well and good, of course.<BR>> >However, how well does the DC system = regulate humidity (in contrast to<BR>> >pitch)?<BR>> ><BR>> = > > I do recommend room type humdifiers as well--but only to = "assist" a DC<BR>> > > unit. If it is a choice of one or the other = the DC provides much better<BR>> > > year round control than is generally possible with a room type. There <BR>> = >are<BR>> > > exceptions, but they are very rare.<BR>> ><BR>> = >This sounds like a reasonable approach.<BR>> ><BR>> > > = Do you have measurements for the summer time? Where I am I have <BR>> >documented<BR>> > > as low as 4% and as high as = 84%.<BR>> ><BR>> >Without humidification, humidity levels inside my = house vary from 27% in <BR>> >the<BR>> >winter to 67% in the = late fall.  I have forced heat and refrigerated A/C,<BR>> >BTW.  I suspect humidity levels are far different in = other parts of the<BR>> >state.  I'm in Central Ohio.  In the = lake areas, humidity is undoubtedly<BR>> >much higher during = moderate weather.  Also, I have no idea what humidity<BR>> = >levels occur in other people's homes here in Columbus.  (I don't = service<BR>> >their pianos. <grin>)<BR>> ><BR>> > > I = would love to have a controller for a DC type system that had = much<BR>> > > narrower limits. I know, for example, that rare bird = hatcheries have <BR>> >units<BR>> > > that are calibrated to 1/10 = of one percent humidity that power an<BR>> > > "electronic" fan = (read no blades--some sort of vibrating plate) combined<BR>> > > = with an ultrasonic humidifer. I'd love to get my pinkies on one!<BR>> ><BR>> >Well, I can't boast 0.1% limits with my system = (WOW!!), but I do quite a <BR>> >bit<BR>> >better than the = specs DC boasts.  I did a 100% non-DC-brand installation on<BR>> = >my concert grand, using a GE humidistat that cycles the system adjustably<BR>> >between 40 - 44% (or occasionally as widely = as 39 - 45%) when the ambient <BR>> >RH<BR>> >is in the upper 40's.  The installation is fairly recent, so I haven't = yet<BR>> >been able to observe its behavior at higher humidity = levels.  I'll give you<BR>> >an update in the spring if you're interested.<BR>> ><BR>> >Peace,<BR>> = >Sarah<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >_______________________________________________<BR>> = >pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> = _________________________________________________________________<BR>>= Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes dial-up = to the max! <BR>>    <A = href="http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST= =1">http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST== 1</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> pianotech = list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>