<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>Thanks for the input David. What I do usually is do my FAC, and = then sample 5 A's or whatever note, and often 5 of another note to test octaves. I = see how they vary and then choose appropriate DOB to get what I want. The A = measurement has (by far) the dominant effect on the tuning calculation. I often = measure all three A4 strings, and the middle A#4 and the middle G#4 string and = see what they look like. It is interesting to look at these because often = one of the notes will differ quite a bit from the others. Remember, there is = nothing magical about A4 when choosing a note to measure for the FAC tuning = calculation. A4 is simply (ideally) a representative note from that area of the = piano. Anyway, after I adjust the DOB to get what I want, I start tuning from = A0.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of my goals is to adjust my style and start tuning from A4 so = that I can incorporate adjustments on the fly. I say I have read all of Jim = Coleman's material - I have. But I have to admit that I have not incorporated all = of it into my daily tuning routine. I'm working on it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell <SPAN = id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2001 = 1:30 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Terry:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>One other comment on the SATIII and the DOB.  = As Jim Coleman has pointed out you can use the DOB on the fly, so to = speak, adjusting it as you go depending on the piano.  If you do this, = however, you must start tuning from A4 outward.  Changes in the DOB will = have no effect on A4 but will have an increasing effect as you go out.  = If you start tuning at A0 and tune chromatically upward and discover that the = octaves around A3 need to be narrowed then the DOB will change the settings = most of those notes that you've already tuned.   Going up from A4, = of course, would not be a problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>And just to emphasize that stretch settings are very piano dependent, I tuned 6' Kawai grand this = morning.  The FAC numbers were quite low, on the order of 6.7, 5.7, 5.8.  This = setting put C8 around 31.  I found that I had to increase the DOB to = about +.3 to get the amount of stretch I wanted.  So it can definitely go both = ways.  </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 2:53 = PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly = what you described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some sample = octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be wanting to = do with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have studied it = extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with my octaves, I = was referring to the upper treble (as in your original post) and was = indicating that I know very little about upper treble stretch theory - why some = tuners stretch more than others, why some stretch a big piano on a stage = more than a small piano in a home. When techs are talking about = these various amounts of stretch, what are they doing with the amount of = beating in octaves and double and triple octaves way up in the high treble? = Are we talking only about putting a half or a quarter bpm in some type of = octave, or lots of beats or what? Any thoughts would be welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell</DIV> <DIV> <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, = 2001 2:50 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>As a general rule I am finding that small = pianos require an entry of -.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger that = number decreases.  But you can measure the stretch before you = start by tuning a double octave (after entering the FAC numbers and = saving), and testing aurally to see if it is where you want it.  The SAT = uses A4 as the fixed point so keep that in mind when you choose your test = double octave.  I usually try and test the double octave to not = include any wound strings.  If the double octave is too wide, input a = negative number on the DOB and change notes (step up, step down) to = implement the change.  Test again.  When you get it where you want it = go ahead and start tuning.  When tuning with the SAT I start in the = tenor and go up (when tuning aurally, I start from the temperament and go down).  When I am done with the treble I usually direct tune = the bass as the machine sometimes has problems across the break and I don't = always agree with its choices for stretch in the bass.  Jim Coleman = has made several contributions to the list regarding use of the DOB.  = I recommend you search the archives and check them out.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 = 11:11 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner = still on a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing with = my octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right where = I wish it to be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have = calculated a tuning with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative = numbers in the DOB to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a = bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October = 21, 2001 11:25 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on = this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is = not a conservative stretch but a fairly healthy one.  To my = ear, I usually reduce the stretch (on the SATIII via the = DOB).   On concert grands I seem to prefer it a = bit under 40.   On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid = 30's.  Of course the general scaling does make a = difference.  But generally I find the standard setting on a SATIII over stretches.  I am curious what other people = find.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dm.porritt@verizon.net href="mailto:dm.porritt@verizon.net">David M. Porritt</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, = 2001 7:40 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on = this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Bill:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" = but as one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to outrageously = stretched octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're talking about.  Could you give us some numbers so we can know = what you mean by tempered octaves?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is = stretched to 5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84.  This is what I = consider a conservative tuning.  What kind of numbers do you = get?  On any piano, just measure your C6, 7, & 8 and tell us what = model piano it is, and how it stretches with your tempered = octaves.  That would be very informative.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dave<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>*********** REPLY = SEPARATOR ***********<BR><BR>On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote:</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #000000 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>In a message dated = 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight Time, = davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes: <BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE="CITE">That being said, if the pianist needs an = altered tuning to create excitement, he should practice more.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial = color=#000000 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>It's always been my = belief, as a piano technician that the better prepared the piano, the = better equipped the artist is.  Remember that I have not = advocated *HT* as such for Jazz.  To you, this implies = *altered* tuning which means something quite noticeably different and thus = creates an *interference* with what you do rather than provide an enhancement. <BR><BR>I don't know if you can or have tried = my EBVT but as I have designed it (with Tempered Octaves), it is = meant to enhance your playing, not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities.  It is meant to provide definition, = texture and clarity, not weird, jarring and shocking dissonances. =  If the EBVT is still to *altered* for you, I believe you = might benefit from the Marpurg (also with my Tempered Octaves = system).  I will give your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and = clear sound but absolutely will not create any distinction = between keys. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#000000 = size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Bill Bremmer RPT <BR>Madison, Wisconsin</FONT><FONT size=2 = Arial></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT><PRE>_____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE= ></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>