<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C5F06C.80F12A30"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"/>  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue = style='tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=Section1> I and many other techs on this list = routinely tune pianos stamped A435 up to A440 pitch. Only in rare situations are = the strings work hardened to the point where there is not enough elasticity = to do this. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> As for the soundboard/bridge = cracks, it is highly likely these could be easily and inexpensively repaired with CA = glue. I encouraged you to find a tech comfortable with its use. If you give us = your approximate location there is likely a tech on this list who would be = willing to do this. Maybe even the 2nd tech you called out could do = it if he would take the time to learn from the archives of this list. = <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I would not dump this piano if it = has the tone you say it does. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> Dean<o:p></o:p></fon= t> Dean May       &nbs= p;     cell 812.239.3359<o:p></o:p> PianoRebuilders.co= m   = 812.235.5272<o:p></o:p> Terre Haute = IN  = 47802<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> -----Original = Message----- From: = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of newdaymoore@bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, November = 23, 2005 7:43 PM To: Pianotech Subject: Re: = A=435 <o:p> </o:p> <div> Well I was told by a = technician who rebuilds vintage pianos to check inside the piano to see if it is = stamped somewhere a435, and it is.  He is the one that gave me most of the information about the history of pianos being tuned at a435 in the late = 1800's to early 1900's.  So I posted to ask if any of you knew about = this.  In the mean time I went online and checked it out.  I found the = technician I talked to was correct.  Another tech looked at the piano and = agreed it was made to be at a435, it is clearly marked in the piano, but with new = strings could be brought up to a440 plus needs new treble bridge.  Plus he = found two hair line cracks in the soundboard.  He told me it  being = so old of a piano isn't worth fulling with.  I found other websites = talking about the history of pitch.  I just typed in the search bar a435 and a = bunch of sites came up.  I know nothing about orchestras, except what I read online. <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> The piano was = bought for a beginner student.  Obviously not the best piano for a new student. = From what information I have gathered from all of you it will take too much = money to fix it up and then who knows what will go next in it.  The = technician who looked at the piano before it was purchased said it was in = very good condition, needed a set of damper felts, set of bridle straps, a = hammer replaced, and a new keybed and a tuning.  He did the repairs = listed and then the tuning. He said it will need 2 tunings = a year and it should last another generation.  Obviously he was very = wrong. Because he was called out the next day because a ringing sound was being = heard in one of the keys. He said it had hairline cracks in the treble bridge = and wanted to do an Epoxy repair.  I posted for the first time on this = site to find out about such a repair.  I am so glad I did.  HE has = never done an epoxy repair but wanted to try it for the first time on my = piano.  After all the advice I got from you all I called and told him no thank you.  That is when he told me he knew about the cracks in the = soundboard.  I guess he forgot he didn't share that with me.  That is when I = decided to call out another tech to get a second opinion.  The = second tech told me about the cracks in the soundboard and he saw the a435 pitch marking = and he saw the cracks in the treble bridge.  So yea, I thought I was doing = the right thing having a tech look at it before I bought it.  But I = guess I didn't pick the right tech.  So I have stupid written across = my forehead.    Thank you all, you have been a great help to = me in trying to decide what to do with this piano.  The piano is = beautiful on the outside but it is 115 years old.  Now I am trying to = figure out which brand of piano to buy for my daughter.  They all cost soo = much brand new.  I am not brave enough to go with a used one again.  = After all the stuff I have read I am beginning to think she should just stick = with guitar.  I got so burned on a used = piano.<o:p></o:p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> ----- Original Message = ----- <o:p></o:p> </div> <div style='font-color:black'> From:</span= > <a href="mailto:custos3@comcast.net" title="custos3@comcast.net">Israel = Stein</a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> To:<= /font> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" = title="pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Sent:</span= > Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:52 AM<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Subject:</s= pan> = A=435<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <o:p> </o:p> </div> At 11:00 AM 11/21/2005, you wrote: <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> I wrote right after that I meant a435.  = I did a typo in my first email.  Sorry.  It is written inside the = piano on the medal plate beside the Sohmer symbol.  This is a piano made = back in 1890.    I knew to check because a gentleman I called who rebuilds pianos told me to check inside to see if it was written or = engraved, "A435"  and it was.  I did a history search and most composers including Chopin composed songs in a 435 pitch.  It was = around the time of WW2 that the 440 became universally accepted. Before that = 435 was most common but there was other pitches that were accepted as = well.  <a href="http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html">www.uk-piano.org/hist= ory/pitch.html</a>   Check out this website.<o:p></o:p> You might want to do some more thorough research than a web search - and examine the veracity of your sources. For example, the website you cite = is no authority - just a fellow who posted some commonly available information = who doesn't even claim to for it be complete. It's an interesting collection = of factoids - not conclusive evidence. There is very little evidence that any pitch was "most common" = at any time before WW-I or maybe even II. One bit of evidence suggests that in = the mid 1860's there were 5 different pitch standards in the city of Paris alone = - 3 at the 3 different opera houses, one used by the Church and one by the = military bands. A-=435 was an unsuccessful attempt to agree on a common "Concert" pitch, and no such agreement was achieved even on = the concert stage - never mind in common practice. As to how common A=435 = became is open to conjecture. (For that matter, it is rather questionable if = A=440 today is very widely accepted on the concert stage - many wind instruments are = being manufactured at higher pitches these days, and so pitch in orchestral = contexts is being forced upward. We were forced to tune our concert instruments = at San Francisco State University at A=441+ so that the wind players could tune to = them...). As for your claims about Chopin and "most composers" writing = songs in A=435 - I would love to see some of those "songs" Chopin = wrote. I'm not aware of any... Most of his  output - at least as a mature = composer - was for piano solo, where pitch made no difference. And since his = favorite pianos were Pleyels, and your source cites Pleyel's pitch in 1836 at = A=446 - what gives? Did they drop their pitch just for him? Or did they drop it = by 11 CPS sometime before 1849? Does the data even mean anything - did they = only use that one pitch, or were they all over the place, and the other tuning = forks were never found? See the perils of speculating about pitch in the 19th century? Really, the question of pitch at various times is much more complicated = than the oversimplifications you will find on websites. The push for = standardizing pitch doesn't really happen until after the development of rail travel = (and increased concert touring) all over Europe - 2nd half of the 19th = century - and the problems that instrumentalists in various locations had tuning to = each other. Even the evidence from surviving tuning forks is suspect - how do = we know these were the rule rather than the exception, the common practice = rather than the one-time experiment? We don't... And I suspect that piano = companies recommending specific pitches were strictly promotional - to show that = they are "with it" on the latest trends, not as any result of specific = scale or structural design features. Theirs were "seat-of-the-pants" trial-and-error design methods - not precisely calculated engineering... = <st1:country-region><st1:place>Israel</st1:place></st1:coun= try-region> Stein <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html>