<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; = FONT-FAMILY: Arial" bottomMargin=7 bgColor=#ffffff leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 = rightMargin=7> <DIV><EM><FONT size=3>Ron O. wrote: "And the brand name = is?"</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=3></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Knabe. Late 1890s. The belly rail is a laminate of = four pieces of white ash that together measure a robust 6 inches (150 mm) tall by 8 inches (200 mm) wide. (Didn't feel any pressing need for additional bracing on this belly rail!) The rim on this rascal is 18 = laminations of white ash that total a full 80 mm wide! I built the new bridges = for this piano out of alternating laminations of hard maple and white ash - so as = not to interrupt the circle of sound (low end of the bass bridge shown below).   ;-)  (Anyone wanting a higher resolution of any = of these pictures, please drop me an email.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:008a01c4f041$084470a0$fbb62341@youro0kwkw9jwc" = align=baseline border=0></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I like how you tapered the head of your fish so as = to extend it well over the belly rail for a solid attachment. Great idea. = I wish I had thought of that when I installed a fish on a Baldwin grand (with a = narrow belly rail) recently. I can see that there is plenty of vertical space = to do that. Next time..... Below is a picture of the Baldwin = treble rim area (fish is made up of epoxied-together scrap hard maple that was = laying around the bandsaw on the floor) (treble brace in picture was added for = belly rail support).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:008b01c4f041$084470a0$fbb62341@youro0kwkw9jwc" = align=baseline border=0></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>One thing I feel the need to make clear. If you like = my woodworking, please feel free to give me all the credit due. But I am = barely scratching the surface of Piano Belly Design 101. Del Fandrich is the brain-power and architect behind all these modifications I am doing to = these pianos. He designs the rim modifications, the new soundboard panel, the = rib scale and array, and the new stringing scale. I simply turn his drawings = and design specifications into wooden musical wonders. And BTW, he is = offering his piano redesign services to rebuilders. Contact him for further = information. (See about half-way down on this link - <A href="http://www.pianobuilders.com/homeframe.html#trade">http://www.pia= nobuilders.com/homeframe.html#trade</A> .) I feel very fortunate to have had his experienced and innovative input = into these projects. And as long as I am identifying the brain-power input for = some of my work, I also have to thank Ron Nossaman who has been a very valuable = resource in helping me sort out some of the complexities of these design = changes and their associated ramifications - he is also very well informed on = the elements of piano redesign.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><EM>Dale E. wrote: "Looking at my Mason double = A project I notice just how toooo much board is behind the bridge. = Its' simply cavernous. It's not to late to put in a fish  This has got = me thinking again. Is there a percentage of board to remove formula that = seems usual?"</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>But then, as soon as you start changing the lengths = of ribs, it would follow that rib cross-sectional dimension(s) should likely = change (assuming, of course, they were well-dimensioned = originally).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It has long been a head-scratcher for me when I = think of soundboard builders that "reproduce" an original Steinway soundboard. To = the best of my knowledge, most soundboard builders cut their ribs in a = 60-foot arc (or there about) and copy the original dimensions. Steinway uses flat = ribs are relies on panel compressive strength (or lack thereof) to maintain = crown (or not). Seems to me cutting an arc into the rib significantly changes = the soundboard design - the ribs in these two designs are, at least in part, = performing very different functions. Why doesn't this approach = incorporate a change in rib dimensions? Has this been a trail-and-error evolution to = the conclusion that it doesn't seem to matter much. Has there been some sort = of engineering input along the way? Is this just in reverence to the wisdom = of the original masters? Or is it if it looks the same, it is the = same?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><A href="mailto:terry@farrellpiano.com">terry@farrellpiano.com</A></FONT><= /DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><A href="http://www.farrellpiano.com">www.farrellpiano.com</A></FONT></DIV= > <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=Erwinspiano@aol.com href="mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 01, = 2005 12:08 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Recycled = technology-cutoff bar</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 = size=2> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   <FONT size=3>Happy New year Ron</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Great to hear from you & good of = you to remove your head from the piano long enough to post. It's always good = to see what's up/new</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3> Good Post & enjoyed the design in the = pics. Beautiful work. I especially liked the ideas about the beams & = belly needing more stiffnes from the maple ones you installed.. This makes a = great deal of sense to me. In hind sight what doesn't make sense is so much = goes into a fine laminated rim in some American pianos & then the belly = rails so weak due to  laminated softwoods. This has been in my = mind for a while now. I'd truly Like to here the 225 in the picture. After all = design is great when the end result produces a sound never/rarely heard before. = I should think that a piano so constructed should sustain for a very long time = in every register with tonal color to live for.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Is this so?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Looking at my Mason double A project I notice just how toooo much board is behind the bridge. = Its' simply cavernous. It's not to late to put in a fish  This has got = me thinking again. Is there a percentage of board to remove formula that = seems usual?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Thanks & Blessings</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    Dale Erwin</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px = solid"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 = size=2> <DIV>Terry, Dale and all,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>From what can be seen, that grand looks like a pretty well = thought out design, with a better distribution of back beams and a generously dimensioned cross beam. And the brand name is?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Dale wrote;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><FONT face=Arial = color=#000000>  Buy the way what is the purpose of the wooden block filling in  = the treble. It looks like it completely eliminated the treble board = area or is it the picture?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Terry has fitted a treble section cut-off to reduce what I also = regard as excessive sound board area behind the bridge in the treble = section. If you look at the panel-belly rail contact in the top string section, = adequate treble area remains. While it might look to be less than desirable = to those who are used to looking at Steinway pianos with the board removed, = this piano which Terry has worked on has a main-belly-rail section made = from two thicknesses glued together. There's a lot of belly rail acreage = underneath that treble section of the board.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:008c01c4f041$084470a0$fbb62341@youro0kwkw9jwc" = align=baseline border=0></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The belly rail of our 225 piano is similarly constructed, with = two 30 mm thicknesses of Rock maple glued together to produce a belly rail = which is effectively a 60 mm thick section of solid maple. The entire belly = rail assembly in our piano is made from Rock Maple, while the cut-off is = made from Australian Antarctic Beech and Silky Beech.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>An image of 225 piano no.4  with a 60 mm thick main belly = rail section can be found at;</DIV> <DIV>http://www.overspianos.com.au/ctoff.html</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>With the Steinway D pianos from Hamburg, the belly rail = comprises a single 30 mm thick section of Red Beech. I suspect that small total sectional size of this piece is why Steinway glue the key bed to the = belly rail, since it will help what I suspect to be an under-engineered = belly rail to support the sound board.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>An image of the '62 Hamburg D case we recently re-boarded can = be viewed at;</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>http://www.overspianos.com.au/stdctoff2.jpg</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>A similar treble cut-off to Terry's can be seen fitted to this = piano. The laminated bass side corner cut-off reduces considerably the = excessive sound board area of the original design, and the resultant 900 + mm = middle order ribs will better resist premature collapse. The original = laminated sound board cut-off and belly-rail-sound-board-support-beam are made = as single bent lamination, which is a good idea. As with Terry's = modified sound board area, we left the original cut-off in place since it won't do = any harm. Furthermore, it saves us having to insert stiffening sections = across the cut-off fill panel.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The original D's treble-section belly rail design can be seen = better in the following image.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>http://www.overspianos.com.au/stdctoff1.jpg</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>In addition to the treble cut-off, we have fitted an extra back = beam in place of the original 'Steinway bell' to better support both the = belly rail and the hitch plate of the iron plate in the top string section. = With reference to the image and text below, note the original = construction of the belly rail assembly.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The lower piece of the original belly rail is the 30 mm thick = main belly rail beam of European Red Beech (which is also glued to the = keybed of a D). Then there is a 30 mm section of pine or some other light wood = (distinguishable in this image by the visible knott). This piece is necessary to allow sufficient room in the action bay for housing the = damper levers. This piece is made from Rock Maple in our piano. Above this = we see the laminated Maple/Bubinga mahogany piece which supports the sound = board across the belly. The most surprising aspect of this design is why = Steinway used such a light-weight wood to join the main Red Beech belly rail = span to the Maple/Bubinga laminate.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Structurally, the belly rail/sound board connection, in all = grand pianos, is already at a strength disadvantage when compared to the = rim, since there is considerable horizontal offset between the main belly = rail member and the belly rail assembly's connection with the sound = board. On this list, much justifiable ridicule has been levelled at several = pianos of Asian origin for using 'select hardwood' Luaun in the rim, belly = rail and back beams. The fill piece of pine in this concert grand would seem = not to be any better when it comes to material strength. Could it be that = since the pine piece can't be seen in this concert grand once the sound board = is installed, that it found its way into the product as a cost cutting = measure? Surely not!</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Happy new year fellow listees,</DIV> <DIV>Ron O.</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>