<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content=Word.Document name=ProgId> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=GENERATOR> <META content="Microsoft Word 10" name=Originator> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; tab-interval: .5in" vLink=purple link=blue> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>This is business, so I think it's on topic ...</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>All this chatter about fairness, gouging, etc., strikes me as so much unnecessary angst.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>If the customer can afford it, is willing to pay it, and is happy with the results, then it doesn't matter WHAT you charge. You may price yourself out of business; and that's the ultimate punishment for greediness or stupidity in an open, competitive free market. </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Is a new Steinway M really WORTH $47,400? It absolutely doesn't matter: They have a market, the customer is delighted (okay, willing) to pay it and can afford it, and the rest of us buy used Wurlitzers. So what? </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I DO have an obligation to be fair with my customers by stating fees up front, getting agreement on the work and the fees, doing quality work, backing up my work, etc., but ...</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I have NO obligation, ever, whatsoever, to determine what is a "fair" amount to charge!</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I am NOT being unfair if I am the most expensive tech in the market, which I will ALWAYS be. I am not being unfair if I refuse to work cheap for people who are cheap (especially!) or even people who can only afford cheap. In the latter case, I can and DO, often, "fix up" a piano at substantially less than normal rates--if I think it will help somebody out, i.e., for charitable reasons (MY choice), and if I believe I will get a loyal, regular tuning customer out of the deal. I have done this often. But ...</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I am NOT being unfair if I charge someone else more! I don't have to decide what "fair" rates and prices are or agonize over the issue. The MARKET will take care of that, just fine.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>As long as you don't lie, cheat, steal, or otherwise break the commandments, it is PERFECTLY ethical, honest, Christian, whatevertermyouwant, to make a buck. And the more, the merrier.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Keep the economy FREE. If prices rise, competition comes in and prices fall. If resources are scarce, the price goes up. If we get greedy, we lose customers to competitors and keyboards. So what?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I understand how thinking can take another road ... my wife, for example, thinks it's outrageous that nice hotels charge twice as much, or more, for rooms on New Year's Eve. Supply and demand. There it is!</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>I don't have or make a great deal. But happiness, it seems to me, is not found in holding myself back because I'm ahead of a few. Happiness comes in NOT envying those who have more while helping those who have less (NOT through any government)--and mostly by helping them do better, not stealing their dignity and hope by making them long term welfare cases.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>Here's a lot of wisdom in a simple formula:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>Income of $25,000 with Expenses & Debts of $24,000 = Happiness</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>Income of $50,000 with Expenses & Debts of $51,000 = Misery</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I believe I might have climbed on a soapbox or pulpit there, sorry. G'night.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3> Alan Barnard</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Salem, Missouri</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ilvey@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:ilvey@sbcglobal.net">David Ilvedson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=deanmay@pianorebuilders.com href="mailto:deanmay@pianorebuilders.com">deanmay@pianorebuilders.com</A>;<A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 09/24/2005 12:06:26 AM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Lesson learned.....</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <P>List,</P> <P>First of all we have to disqualify Susan because she is tends to give away her work...(no smiley)...</P> <P>It sounds like Dean is selling an insurance policy for adequate tuning pin torque.   He has made the assumption that most of the time he will not have to come back do more CA application.   He made a high price to cover the occasional costs of coming back to do redo the work...</P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Dean says: Actually, I didnt say I could do it with no problem. I could do it but often it was a huge problem. CA helps to make it no problem. )</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If he never has to come back to redo the work, i.e "no problem", then we "MAY" have some qualms about the cost....</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So Dean, are you charging them $250 to do the CA work and then charging them for the tuning & whatever else is needed?   If you were doing the CA work and then tuning the piano...hey $250 is reasonable...especially witht the quarantee...$250 + the tuning charges seems a little extreme seeing as you don't have to come back.  Insurance companies DO have to put out money towards claims...</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">my take...</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">David Ilvedson</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> </DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> </DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> </DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> <DIV class=Section1> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Consider the cost to me that it took to develop the expertise to do this job. <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Okay, I will. What costs? Your computer time? I certainly paid nothing to <BR>learn this job, except some extra time for that first Zimmerman, to do <BR>the work more laboriously than necessary. Did you travel to a distant <BR>convention, or pay somebody a bundle to teach you to put CA glue on <BR>pinblocks? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lets see, I spent many hours learning the craft, many hours and dollars practicing and correcting mistakes. I spent many years using CA glue in other applications learning its idiosyncrasies particularly how wood responds to it. I spend an annual fee to the PTG. I took the time to attend meetings and network with other techs. I took the time to attend seminars. And yes, I take time here at the computer culling these posts for nuggets. Those are all real costs. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Consider how much money I am saving the customer. <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">I'm afraid I'm more likely to consider the money you are <SPAN class=GramE>taking <BR>from</SPAN> your customer. If you can keep the piano playable and tunable <BR>for pennies and minutes per tuning, what are they paying the $250 for? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">I could get a job at Wal-Mart for $5 per hour as well. How can I sleep at night charging $85 for a tuning? How can David Love charge $150? (Sorry to bring you into this, David. I certainly in no way begrudge you your rates. You earn every penny) <SPAN class=GramE>What</SPAN> do you charge for a tuning, Susan, and how can you justify that knowing that comparatively most of the world only makes pennies on the dollar on a per hour basis? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"><BR><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">>></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Consider that <SPAN class=GramE>everyone</SPAN> of these jobs that I've sold my customers have been very happy to pay such an amount for all of those benefits. <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Would they still be happy if they knew you how little it cost you to do it? Have you really thought through whether your fees should reflect whatever you can get, versus whether they should be based on how much effort and expense you have to shell out? If they spend money on their pianos which they didn't need to spend, they don't have it for everything else. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Well, they watch real close. They see me tip the piano, they see my get out a little bottle of glue, they look at how it is applied and they watch the clock. I dont do any trickery, no incantations, <SPAN class=GramE>nothing</SPAN> up the sleeve. If they cant figure out my actual costs in a ballpark range I should be charging them triple. They arent paying for the actual costs and they know it. They are paying for my expertise and the peace of mind of an 8 year warranty. Less than $30 a year is making their piano usable where it previously wasnt. I am giving my customers a warranty. You arent. Tell me who is giving their customer a better value? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">>></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Just my take on it -- we all have to figure out business ethics for ourselves. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><<<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">I have no problem defending my charges. In fact I appreciate the challenge. But here is where it gets a little dicey. You have been pretty strongly implying that I am unethical in my charges. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">I consider myself a professional. I have 25 years experience and a degree in mechanical engineering. I have a strong base of satisfied customers who trust me with the care of their piano. I am not the cheapest tuner in the area and most of them know it. In fact, I always try to be the most expensive tuner in the area. If people dont want to pay my rates they are free to use someone else and Ive even given out the names and numbers of my competitors to such people. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">My newest car is 7 years old. I live in a 100 year old house. I am not materially rich- I have too many kids. ;-) But maybe someday Ill be able to get $300/minute like the proctologist. Better yet, Ill just be happy with the real wealth that I do have. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Blessings,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dean<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>