<HTML>Andre, Thank you very much for offering us a glimpse into the wisdom that it's = taken years to accumulate, and for the time it took to send some of it along= to me/us.   I will address everything else first before I put needle to hammer. &nbs= p;If I don't have to make the little holes, everyone will probably be happie= r! Thanks again, and to everyone who has responded thus far.   Dave Stahl In a message dated 3/6/04 6:49:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, antares@euro= net.nl writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-= LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On 6-mrt-04, at 5:21, Piann= aman@aol.com wrote: > Liszt, > > I have a job coming up where I'll be working on a Seiler 180(5 10" > grand).  I'll be at it all day, easing, lubing, regulating, tu= ning, > and voicing.  These are really well-built German pianos, with = Renner > blue hammers, and full Renner actions, etc., etc. > > I'm sure someone on this list has experience with these pianos. &nb= sp;I've > worked on quite a few, but not to this extent.  I've tuned man= y, and > done minor regulations on several, but have never voiced one. &nbsp= ;I'm > actually surprised that nobody has asked me to voice  because = there > are some really harsh overtones that emanate from the piano above t= he > treble break.  I've muted some in the past by lacing felt thro= ugh the > strings and wedging it under the capo bar, with some success. &nbsp= ;The > customer knows about this method, but would prefer it voiced down, = or > so he says. > > My main concern in this whole deal is that I've seen the results of= a > tech trying to "voice down" that section on a different piano. &nbs= p;The > hammers are ruined.  They look like pin cushions, and sound li= ke them > too. > > Can anyone offer advice on the voicing of these instruments?  = M. > Orobeek??  Anyone??   > > I've got a call in to the Seiler rep.  I'm certain he's heard = this > complaint before.  I'm curious what the company has to offer i= n terms > of a fix. > > Thanks in advance for any and all input, > > Dave Stahl Hallo Dave Stahl, I am actually amazed that Seiler now sells instruments with Renner Blues. I don't see them that often and the last time I saw one in a shop (about 2 months ago), it had Abel VFG felt. Does this mean that Seiler instruments destined for the USA have Renner Blues as a rule? Anyway, Aside from designing them, voicing piano's, is definitely the next most complicated work in the piano industry because of the many facets / parameters involved. Anyone skilled at voicing will agree that if you don't know enough about it, a piano can easily be ruined in a few seconds. Luckily, there are basic rules, but it is sometimes very hard to really understand them because, a. that depends on whether the one who conveys these basic rules is knowledgeable enough but, also has the capacity to explain them - and, b. it depends on whether the person asking the questions, is experienced enough to grasp the information and has the motoric skills to do the actual voicing (I have seen people who understood the process, but were right out clumsy and continually broke needles or even hammer shanks) According to my experience here are some of the rules : power and quality No matter the taste of the owner / pianist, a hammer must have enough - basic - power to give a powerful enough and thus satisfying tone. This power is the basis of producing a good tone and is of the highest importance for any piano. To deduct whether a hammer set has these qualities depends on the talent and experience for listening to 'sounds', and that's actually the key to proper voicing (I will now not get into other facets of voicing like regulation and tuning, or the quality of the instrument). The power and the resilience of the hammer are first determined by the felt maker and the hammer maker. The piano maker chooses for, and buys, a certain quality, and the voicing technician has to make use of these qualities. Zen and perception The outcome of a complete voicing (for instance after a hammer change) is first determined by what an instrument can 'give', but next to that by the skills of the technician, and above all by his or her perception of 'what it should be', what it should sound like. By playing the instrument extensively we will get a good impression of what we have 'in our hands'. Usually, the technician likes certain area's and makes mental notes of these. Those 'beauty spots' are anchors and they 'show us' what the instrument requires from us. It would be great if we could work on it, so, that each note becomes an equal member of 'one big harmonious family'. To accomplish that, we must have a vision, a 'pre-hearing' of what might be possible. The work, time, and energy, needed for a hammer change, is enormous and asks for deep concentration and vast experience. If we do this kind of work very often, we may find that, after a couple of years, the same job requires less time, less energy. After 10-15 years, even less time and energy are used, and the outcome, the final result, is often of higher quality. How come? This final result is based on doing thousands and thousands of movements, year after year, and because we do this over and over again (and every instrument is yet another challenge and a new inspiration) we are able to figure out short cuts and ways to spare our poor backs and muscles. In the end, it becomes truly amazing how fast we can do such an intricate and complicated work in such a short time, relatively speaking. It becomes 'Zen like' and I like that. It is based on thought and perception, and on hard labor, but the trick is to spend as little energy as is possible and at the same time achieve a maximum result. first voicing In every piano factory there is always a first voicing and a second voicing. During the first voicing, the basis will be laid for the future dynamic range of the instrument. This is done by making use of the natural resilience of the wool and by the making of a proper 'cushion', a shock absorber. 1. cushion The making of a cushion is the very most important work of the voicing technician. It is done by needling down the tension in the felt in a specific area and the needling must to stop when the shock absorbing properties are sufficient. This is easier said then done and it requires vast experience to make quick decisions and do the work in an commercially reasonable time. 2. hammer filing and shape After the making of the cushion, the hammers will be swollen due to the needling process. This swelling will diminish overnight or by the use of a professional hammer pounding machine, but anyway, the hammers need to be brought into a symmetrical form and usually also into a specific shape. Filing is not a simple job. It requires a steady hand and a trained eye. In some factories or workshops the technicians use a thin and flat wood stick on which sanding paper has been glued. In other factories the technicians make use of the so called shoe shine technique, whereby they use a piece of filing paper or linen, large enough to file a couple of hammers at the same time. I personally prefer the 'shoe shine' technique because a. it is much easier b. the hammer surfaces will be more precise and level and c. it works much and much faster. 3. hammer fitting Hammers will give their maximum result when each string receives the same amount of energy. Methods differ : In some factories hammer fitting is done a number of times during both first voicing and second voicing and the method of fitting the hammers to the strings also differs from place to place. Some use a little hook, to pull up the hammer to the string, others (Yamaha) have developed a handy way to lift wippen and hammer at the same time, thereby blocking the process of let off. (a long piece of felt laid between wippens and hammer rolls will have the same effect). The first voicing is in my opinion the most important voicing. Some technicians pull up their noses for 'first voicing', or are impatient, and want to go on as fast as possible with the second voicing, which they think is much more interesting. To have a good understanding of the first voicing technique (hammer basics) will ensure the voicing technician of a fine success when he is ready with the second voicing. No understanding of this process, or being impatient, will ensure a hammer tragedy. Second voicing This is the moment when an instrument 'shows its character'. Through more needling, but this time in the highest zones only (the crown area), the technician evens out the tonal volume. This is a very dangerous moment, because 'voicing a bit here and voicing a bit there' may well result in a gradually and slowly (or speedy) going down in power. Again, this is something which one only learns and masters through many mistakes and hard won experience and it, again, shows that the perception of what-it-should-sound-like is an absolute requirement. During second voicing, we also try to get rid of 'noise' and buzz or ringing sounds and we perform the left pedal voicing. 1. noise or buzz This is one of the complaints we often talk or write about because it is so hard to get rid of. This is indeed a very complex issue on the one hand, because many factors are involved (like strings, soundboard, frame, capo's, and hammers), on the other hand we can often solve it quickly by either improving or masking. It is often not possible (no time, no money) to clean the capo's by filing and polishing them. Worn hammers or badly treated hammers are often the cause and if our time is limited (and it often is) we must focus on regulation, tuning and voicing. A proper regulation is number one, just like a fine tuning. hammers The hammers though often require extra attention because they are usually damaged and have deep grooves. I have made it my principle not to work anymore on hammers with very deep grooves. In my opinion the work is for nothing because one has to file the hammers dramatically to get back an even and symmetrical shape, which is an absolute requirement for a good result. Many technicians just file down the crown area and think they do a good job because it looks nice and clean again. They forget that the total shape of the hammers has gone from a pear shape to an apple shape with a very different effect on overtones. Filing away the grooves of a hammer (or almost, as required by the famous Yamaha method) is one thing, re-shaping the hammer into a desired symmetrical object another. First of all, the hammer will be dramatically lighter, causing a loss in down weight of sometimes 5 grams. At the same time the loss of mass will cause a different complexity of overtones which means that the whole instrument (and especially in middle and treble) will sound different. That's why I am of the opinion that filing should be limited and that customers should be made aware that indeed hammers are like tires (only a 'little' more expensive).  (; So, in order to fix noise and buzz quickly, we should focus on : string tapping and leveling, regulation, tuning, hammer fitting, voicing, and single string voicing. friendly greetings from Andr� Oorebeek </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML>