<HEAD> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>To use the slow pull on the S&S--especially if the pin is jumpy--i= t seems to work well to first lower pitch a few cents then gently, slowly, = steadily (while whacking) raise it to slightly, I say again, <EM>= slightly</EM> over pitch. Then just let it settle (while whacking) without = pushing the pin back, i.e., without using the hammer to "set" the pin.</DIV= > <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your first pull is not high enough or, especially, if you pulled to= o high and end up sharp, then you need to push down a few cents and start o= ver. You get pretty good at hitting it on the mark, after a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV> <DIV>Salem, MO<BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: James H Frazee <= JIMFRAZEE@MSN.COM><BR>Sent: Dec 19, 2005 4:12 PM <BR>To: tune4u@earthlink.n= et <BR>Subject: Re: The Art & Science, was RE: Setting tuning pins <BR>= </DIV><ZZZHTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><ZZ= ZHEAD><ZZZMETA content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv="Con= tent-Type"> <STYLE></STYLE> <ZZZMETA content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name="GENERATOR"></ZZZHEAD><ZZZBO= DY id=MailContainerBody style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal;= FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px= ; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDE= R-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" name= ="Compose message area" CanvasTabStop="true" acc_role="text" topMargi= n="0" leftMargin="0"><ZZZ!--[GTE 5] IE><ZZZ![ENDIF]--> <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FA= MILY: Verdana"> <DIV>Alan,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your thoughtful and complete reply!  Actually, I norma= lly use Liz Baker's WJB method although I started out using Randy Potter's/= Franz Mohr's method simply because I had taken the Potter course until I ga= ve up on it.  I haven't tried the slow pull yet, though, and that may = be just the ticket for this piano!  It's an M that suffers from what I= call "aggressive neglect"; hadn't been tuned for eighteen years, was over = a full whole step flat to start and was so dusty inside that the dust had a= ctually solidified.  That said, it took two tunings to get it playable= , except for one string of E3 which would slip its gears if I fussed too mu= ch.  Finally got it to hold and told the owner to keep his fingers cro= ssed for his party last weekend and call me if it went out again.  So = far, no call but that could also be because they won't touch or tune the pi= ano for another 18 years.   I will try to the slow pull, though, = because it would probably be safer on this one.  Thanks again!</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGI= N-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:tune4u@earth= link.net href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">Alan Barnard</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:pianotech@ptg.= org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 19, 2005 4:05= PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> The Art & Science, was = RE: Setting tuning pins</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">On many Shteinveigh Und Zunz you have to = kinda sneak up to the pitch. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Gee, that was clear ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Let me try again. The idea of setting the= pin by jerking it slightly over pitch and back pressuring to settle it on = pitch doesn't always work on the S&S. I have often found it helpfu= l to use the slow steady pull rather than "notch" tuning on these babies. T= hat way you can estimate the slightly amount of overpull needed and let it = settle to pitch without putting any back pressure on the hammer. This is th= e ONLY way I've been able to tune the tenor and low treble of one particula= r M that I tune.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Having said that, here's a quote from the= Randy Potter Course: "Steinway pianos do not have plate bushings and some = technicians have difficulty getting the pins in tune because their method o= f tuning ends up wiggling the tuning pin around (flagpoling), especially if= the pins are tight. I find that I can get the piano into tune quicker= , and it tends to hold better, when I use notch tuning for these pianos. An= d this is the method I was taught when I studied with Franz Mohr ... (at St= einway)"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">See? Now that is different from MY experi= ence. Is either idea "right" or "wrong"? No, I don't think so.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Liz Baker, who kept the St. Louis Symphon= y's three Steinway D's humming sweetly for 21 years, calls her technique "w= iggle, jerk, and bang." She puts a vibration energy into the hammer (the wi= ggle) then makes very small notches (the jerk) while hitting a sharp blow o= n the key (the bang). That's different than the slow pull I described above= but anyone who can tune for Rachmaninoff concertos obviously knows how to = set a stable pin, so her technique is certainly worth a try, too. </FONT></= DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Having said all that, I'd like to recomme= nd the book "Different Strokes" by Ken Burton, RPT, available thru Randy Po= tter, <A title=http://www.pianotuning,com/ href="http://www.pianotuning= ,com">www.pianotuning,com</A>. Not only are many concepts, theories, and te= chniques described but he begins the book by saying (page 3) "Every piano t= unes differently." I sincerely believe that is true! </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Steinways, perhaps because they lack coll= ars, DO seem to have a characteristic feel BUT it is by no means specific o= r unique, and there is certainly no single approach that works on all = of them, or any other type or brand of pianos.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">I have come to believe that ONLY tuning m= any pianos, with some experimentation and active THINKING about what the pi= ns feel like, what different hammers feel like, etc., gives one the real sk= ill necessary to confidently approach any piano and know that you can creat= e a good and STABLE tuning. In short, I don't think you develop a "techniqu= e" with the hammer that is unique to you, unique to a type of hammer, uniqu= e to any brand of pianos, or unique to any piano, for that matter. </FONT><= /DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">What we must develop (it only comes = with much experience) is the ability to FINESSE each pin into place--regard= less of pin feel, string friction, etc.--based on the tactile and aural&nbs= p;feedback THAT PARTICULAR pin is giving you as you tune it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Though there are technical skills to lear= n and science and theory, I strongly believe that ultimately the ability to= tune quickly, well, and with stability, is a rather highly refined ART. An= d it just flat takes time and experience to develop any art form.</FONT></D= IV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Salem, Missouri</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5p= x; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>= From:</B> <A title=mailto:jimfrazee@msn.com href="mailto:jimfrazee@msn.= com">James H Frazee</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=mailto:pianotech@ptg.= org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/19/2005 12:39:26 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Setting tuning pins</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><ZZZ!--[GTE 5] IE><ZZZ![ENDIF]--> <DIV>What method<IMG title="Sleeping half-moon emoticon" style="FLOAT: = none; MARGIN: 0px; POSITION: static" tabIndex=-1 alt="Sleeping half-moo= n emoticon" src="cid:003501c604e9$4fe7a4f0$A77E819E@hewlett5k1589j" MSNNo= nUserImageOrEmoticon="true"> do you use for setting tuning pins, par= ticularly one that "jumps" on an S&S grand?</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></= BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></ZZZBODY></ZZZHTML></BODY><PRE> Salem, Missouri </PRE>