<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Hello David I,      I haven't heard any squeaks to date, possibly because of the dilution or, it may be the case that CA just doesn't squeak.  I say this because two or so years ago when the possiblity of using CA like this first occured to me I put too thick a concentration on a test bushing which I then found to be too hard and, if memory serves me, noisy  with a click, not a squeak.   I then rebushed this particular flange, shrunk it normally (that is, with water), repinned it and gave it no more thought until the problem with the Tokiwa flanges came up.  So, I had, later, at the point I referred viz a viz the ridiculous Tokiwa bushings,  already some concept of what might be useful as regards the concentration to be used.       Personally, I don't believe a problem will develop if it hasn't shown up now as the treated flanges have been subjected to substantial play and the piano has been exposed to real extremes of humidity and temperature with no problems in this particular set of flanges.       The only mechanical problem I can see to have any real possiblity of developing over time would be a general pulverization of the impregnated plastic due to the repeated shocks incurred in playing.   Were this to occur it may have the effect only of decreasing the friction and increasing, again, the wobble, or, as you say, possiblily causing a sqeak.   If so, retreatment could cure this problem for some period.  Another  possiblity , is that the  pulverized material may actually once again increase friction  in the flange to unacceptable levels.  This would probably be dependent upon the dimensions on a molecular level of the particular polymer that constitutes the plastic and the interstitial spaces in the felt.  These things, in my opinion, are extremely unlikely.       Finally, in terms of functionality another possiblity of difficulty exists which, I think, would be dependent upon the proportions used and type of felt employed, and is the less likely the more dilute the mixture.   This would be such a combination of material as to make the bushing hard enough that under conditions which diminish the size of the hole, or swell the bushing,  (in my mind this is increased moisture although this point is argued here), that is that act in such a way as to cause the pressure in the bushing to increase a result could be had in which the pining becoming too tight, as can happen with a teflon bushing.   The proof however, will have to be in the pudding, that is, in the use of the technique and observations of its effects over time.  Regards, Robin Hufford David Ilvedson wrote: <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid200412112046.iBBKk6B12941@bridget.rudoff.com"> <pre wrap="">Glue wicking into flange bushing cloth is a source of squeeks. The CA glue isn't causing this problem? Because it is so diluted? David I. ----- Original message ----------------------------------------> From: Robin Hufford <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hufford1@airmail.net"><hufford1@airmail.net></a> To: Pianotech <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org"><pianotech@ptg.org></a> Received: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:29:39 -0600 Subject: Re: Rebushing centers/mystery center pinning </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hello Richard, Don and Barbara, A few more comments interposed. First, I did try today the use of alcohol as a wetting agent; it was useless as it served only to accelerate the reaction and immediately harden the mixture as Don Rose predicted it would. Also, while applying it to a piece of bushing cloth as Barbara considered doing it was obvious that there really was no need for a wetting agent as it disappeared almost instantaneously upon being dripped onto the cloth. There was no discernible puddling or lag time. Again, this was a Don predicated. Two for two. It may be however, that the penetrabilty of this mixture may be different in a bushed flange whether the pressure in the bushing may have to be taken into account. The obvious effect of this stuff was to stiffen and harden slightly the cloth as I intended. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Richard Brekne wrote: </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hi again Robin, a couple comments below Robin Hufford wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hello Richard, ..... However, simply because the claim is made that the bushing is hard doesn't mean, in my experience, they will be, perhaps yes, perhaps no, perhaps sometimes and one probably will not know when until perplexing difficulties arise. One can take the hammershank and flange in hand and hold the flange tightly while trying to wiggle the shank in a way so that the pin can be made to move back and forth in the bushing and watch this motion. A soft bushing will show more motion of the pin in the bushing and that is a serious problem as it has a really detrimental effect on the sound. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Herein lies at least one tentative test for Barbaras flanges and it would be nice to hear what she observes in this regard. Up to this point I've been taking for granted that the bushings in question were as previously described. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Sometimes, as I Barbara and I both have experienced, repining is only a temporary improvement; in the face of such a frustrating experience I tried the method I described. It appears, as I said, at least for the moment to have both worked at the time of use in stabilizing the friction and wobble and led to no discernible subsequent pining problem. But, again, its purpose was to deal with an overly soft bushing. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I have to admit I've never tried the kind of solution you describe above, being hesitant to apply any chemicals at all to either hammers or bushings. Too many unsatisfactory experiences for my part. </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> In general, I thoroughly agree: A clean pin, of the right alloy, with a proper woven felt cloth, properly densified, I think, can be shown to have worked for generations reliably and can continue to be expected to do so. Why fiddle around with anything else? A lesson, in my opinion, these various companies should take to heart. But they don't and they put out, generally for frivolous reasons, the kinds of products of which we are taking note of here. But, in this case, here was a problem in need of a solution, which, in the case of my use of the technique, appears to have worked. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">What I have found works very well is to work a good deal of teflon powder into the bushing and burnish very agressively followed by a rather tight pinning. Generally if I do have a problem afterwareds it goes in the opposite direction and I need to loosen things up a bit. Perhaps I might give your suggestion a try tho on some spares I have. Never thought of using CA in this context before. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">If I were Barbara in this situation I would find two or three really weak sounding notes from the middle and low treble and change nothing else but the density of their bushings with the mixture, or take the time to use water with alcohol, and judge from the results. I think is absurd even to have to do this lesser task by necessity but even more so when it is necessary to take the time to rebush parts for which one has already paid good money to have acceptable bushings come along with the rest of the order. I'll have to climb down off my soapbox here before I get myself really worked up! Regards, Robin Hufford </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Agreed, should be an un-needed operation for high quality parts. But then, assuming these are the new NY Steinway parts... we (I at least) dont know really what these are like from the get go. That said... the whole concept of bushings with such low friction does not appeal to me in the first place. </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">It doesn't to me either: I am not sure it is even a valid technical idea and it seems this idea may only be a stop-gap attempt to deal with the problems of geometry, excessive mass and friction which one sees in the present production. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">RicB _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>