<html> When I'm starting to write this emotional-ethical kind of post, I can see that my emotional reaction to the state of the world as a whole -- the hurricanes, the debt, the vanishing oil, the war, etc. -- is leaking into whatever else I write. It's time to take a break from pianotech for awhile ... anyone, feel free to write me privately, off list ... That said, I have to answer a little of Dean's post before disappearing. Susan At 08:16 PM 9/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>>>Consider the cost to me that it took to develop the expertise to do this job. Okay, I will. What costs? Your computer time? I certainly paid nothing to learn this job, except some extra time for that first Zimmerman, to do the work more laboriously than necessary. Did you travel to a distant convention, or pay somebody a bundle to teach you to put CA glue on pinblocks? >> Let's see, I spent many hours learning the craft, many hours and dollars practicing and correcting mistakes. I spent many years using CA glue in other applications learning its idiosyncrasies particularly how wood responds to it. I spend an annual fee to the PTG. I took the time to attend meetings and network with other techs. I took the time to attend seminars. And yes, I take time here at the computer culling these posts for nuggets. Those are all real costs. </blockquote> So, you generalize your fee for the CA work onto your whole training and work experience -- I don't. I figure that if CA had never entered the scene, I still would have put in just as much work and time on the rest of the piano training as I did. Learning about CA didn't add appreciably to the general educational expense, and it's saved me incredible amounts of time and grief. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>>>Consider how much money I am saving the customer. I'm afraid I'm more likely to consider the money you are taking from your customer. If you can keep the piano playable and tunable for pennies and minutes per tuning, what are they paying the $250 for? >> I could get a job at Wal-Mart for $5 per hour as well. How can I sleep at night charging $85 for a tuning? How can David Love charge $150? (Sorry to bring you into this, David. I certainly in no way begrudge you your rates. You earn every penny) What do you charge for a tuning, Susan, and how can you justify that knowing that comparatively most of the world only makes pennies on the dollar on a per hour basis? </blockquote> I charge $85 for a tuning, $90 on the coast or when I have to drive an equivalent distance. David Love obviously charges $150 partly due to the living costs of his area. Mine are moderate, though a lot of the country would call them low. I keep my rate roughly equivalent to decent tuners in the area, though I try to be on the high side. I can sleep at night just fine with my $85, partly because I try to give my best when doing "ordinary" tunings, by including minor repairs and stuff like CA on loose pins, so long as they don't seriously increase my work time. If they are going to, I discuss options with the owner and we decide what to do. I also know that our whole society has been getting, if not a free ride, certainly unjust profits from a lot of the world, such as bananas for 39 cents a pound. I don't like it, but I don't see how to change it, other than buying local when I can, and being willing to pay a fair price for decent work, and never darkening the door of stores like Walmart. I do a certain amount of charitable giving where I think it will help. And if certain piano owners really don't have enough to get their instruments working, I take the regular fee, but add in quite a bit of pro bono work. This happens maybe once a month or so.  <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>>>Consider that everyone of these jobs that I've sold my customers have been very happy to pay such an amount for all of those benefits. Would they still be happy if they knew you how little it cost you to do it? Have you really thought through whether your fees should reflect whatever you can get, versus whether they should be based on how much effort and expense you have to shell out? If they spend money on their pianos which they didn't need to spend, they don't have it for everything else. >> Well, they watch real close. They see me tip the piano, they see my get out a little bottle of glue, they look at how it is applied and they watch the clock. I don't do any trickery, no incantations, nothing up the sleeve. If they can't figure out my actual costs in a ballpark range I should be charging them triple. They aren't paying for the actual costs and they know it. They are paying for my expertise and the peace of mind of an 8 year warranty. Less than $30 a year is making their piano usable where it previously wasn't. I am giving my customers a warranty. You aren't. Tell me who is giving their customer a better value? </blockquote> I submit that I give them a better value, since I get their pianos with loose pins working and charge them nothing extra, instead of $250. If they and you are both happy with your fee structure, that's your business -- but I don't think that charging $250 for a 30 minute job will ever become part of my business (barring a Weimar-style hyperinflation.) <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>>>Just my take on it -- we all have to figure out business ethics for ourselves. << I have no problem defending my charges. In fact I appreciate the challenge. But here is where it gets a little dicey. You have been pretty strongly implying that I am unethical in my charges. </blockquote> As I've said several times, your business ethics are up to you, not me. I can say that an hourly rate like that, for ME in the area where _I_ live I would consider unethically high. If you're comfortable with it, that's your affair. I have nothing against your experience, your qualifications, your expenses, or your life style. I have 27 years of experience, and two applied music degrees. I get by ... So long -- I may lurk now and then, but I'll take a break for awhile. While I feel I can stand by what I've said, I don't think we should be posting in this frame of mind.  Susan </html>