<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: medium; FONT-FAMILY: AGaramond Bold"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <P> <DIV>Jurgen wrote: " <DIV><FONT size=+0>At the risk of raising the ire of the upper partial dissectors hard at=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>work on this list, I'd like to add to and prolong the overdamper thread=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>:^)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>[ Disclaimer: I hope I am not starting to look like the Houdini of=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>overdampers here, I simply have no fear of them and so I see more than=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>the average technician, and I am merely expressing my opinion.]</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>Joe Garrett wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> The "after-ring" is intentional!!!! Do NOT try to "improve" the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> damping of Over-Damper Pianos....EVER! These instruments were made to=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> sound like "ancient" instruments, only louder and a larger compass.=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> Please do not fall into that pit. Attempting to "Improve" the damping=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> will be a road of major frustrations and failure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>I don't think this is really the case. While it is true, of =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>course,=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>that tastes and expectations of piano tone and performance have shifted=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>over time, I would speculate the better overdamper pianos (of the day)=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>indeed tried to sound contemporary - after all, they were competing=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>against underdamper pianos already (I am talking 1880s + )</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>When I encounter a 100 year old underdamper piano with leaky =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>dampers=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>and tubby bass strings, I always assume the instrument didn't sound=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>this way when it was new. (That is why we rebuild them.) Similarly,=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>on overdamper pianos the after-ring is surely several times more than=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>it originally was.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>It is often fairly easy to get rid of at least half of the =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>after-ring,=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>which probably gets the piano sounding a lot closer to what it was=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>supposed to sound like. An easy test for the potential of damping=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>improvement is to push the overdamper assembly in toward the strings=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>and compare the after-ring to the original state. Usually, damping=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>improves considerably. Often, the overdamper assembly can be brought=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>in a bit closer to the strings with the center support. If not, the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>action "holders" (rarely are they brackets as we know them) can be=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>shimmed to tilt the action in a bit. Of course, this is more of a=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>make-it-work measure than a "proper" repair, but it works. (and I=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>don't have the gall to sell a two thousand dollar reconditioning job on=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>a piano like that.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>In many cases, the damper felts (being end grain felt - see =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>below)=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>have compressed and the damper wire lift buttons are resting on the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>wippen - essentially the same effect as damper arms resting on the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>spoons of an underdamper action. A huge improvement can be made in=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>short order by adjusting the damper wires.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>So, yes - go for it - DO try to improve the damping! Do we =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>have a=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>feud yet, Joe? :^)"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Jurgen,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Not a feud, but rather two different points of view.<G></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I would like to point out that during most of the time that the Overdamper Pianos were being made, "Modern" Grands & Uprights were being made side by side with them. Why? Hmmm? My contention is that the sound was different and there was a market for this "sound". That sound is very much like that of the "ancient" instruments of the pre1850 era. If you put yourself in the consumer's, (of the 1860's up to 1900 or so), shoes, you will think as they did. They went into Piano Stores to buy a new piano, (which was sign of affluence and much sought after during that period.). Many, I'm sure, wanted something that "sounded" like Great Aunt Maude's piano, (which was a pre 1850's piano), but they wanted the "newer" look, etc. It did have to "fit in" with the decor of the period, after all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Manufacturers knew that the OverDamper Upright AND the Square Grand Piano were "olde" thinking/technology, and yet they continued to manufacture them, because there was a demand. Yes, there were manufacturers that made OverDamper Pianos, that sound better the the majority of what was made. (Hmmm? Come to think of it, the same rings true for Grands and Uprights as well, doesn't it?<G>) I believe that when the majority started embracing what we now know as the "Modern" piano sound, the market for OverDampers went away. Pure and Simple a matter of Supply and Demand.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>As for your fix for making the OverDampers work better....That is a "way" of doing it. And, it works adequately for the task at hand, which is to make this thingee damp a bit better. However, having replaced many sets of OverDampers, on some rather "nice" pianos, I can state that, no matter how meticulous I was, NONE were able to damp as good as any modern upright of the same period. Hmmm? Why is that? Plain and Simple, (again), the closer you get to the string termination the less effective the damper will be to absorb the vibrating energy. This fact was established in the time of around 1850 or so. Sooooooo, again, The Over Ring IS intentional and should only be moderated, NOT eliminated, because it is impossible, given the action geometry & physical characteristics. Another case in point: What was the music that was played by the "Poo folks" of the time? Answer: Mozart, Bach, and gazillions of composers that tended to write what I would term as pianistic Noodling. Playing this music on an OverDamper Piano gives this sort of music more of a Chordal Content, than a modern piano would/could. The "masses" loved this sound and sought it vigorously, IMO. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I could go on and on, but won't. I'll just say that I've been working on OverDamper Pianos, Square Pianos and Square Grand Pianos for over 30 years. The above is a culmination of vast study/research and practical findings. Wether I'm correct or not....truly there is no way to be absolutely positive that what I have concluded is true, (not without a time machine<G>), but until someone, (perhaps you Jurgen), can come up with a better explanation of these beasts...AND, prove it, then I rest my case!<G></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>Regarding the felt:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>Ed Sutton wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> Please note that when replacing dampers on 19th century pianos you=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> must first ascertain the grain orientation of the original dampers.=A0=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> You may need to cut new dampers from felt sheets to duplicate the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> original dampers.=A0 Changing the grain orientation will change the=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> damping.=A0 Of course, you need to be sure the dampers on the piano =</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>are=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> original! To understand damper felt grain, tear apart old dampers=20=</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> in various directions, noting that some ways tear in even sheets,=20</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> others resist or tear raggedly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>> Ed S.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ed is absolutely on the mark on this one! Way to go Ed!</DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)</DIV> <DIV>Captain, Tool Police</DIV> <DIV>Squares R I</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P></BODY></HTML>