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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000=
000
size=3> Hi Dave, Andre</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> Are we having a slight miscommunication pro=
blem
or what? At least to me it seems so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> If different soundboard systems didn't=
have
different designs & hence different mechanical impedance we could design=
a
hammer that would work perfectly well in every piano without a needle stitch=
or
drop of voicing solution. Now that's a fact certain sure &
simple.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> I think we are saying similar things or perceivin=
g
things differently from a kinesthetic sense or by experience or by training.=
Nevertheless. As one who has used a variety of different types & brands =
of
hammers I have found that certain types of pianos require more felt
stiffness/density (or low tension high tension) than others depending on the=
mechanical impedance of the board. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> For example I find Mason Hamlin pianos in general=
in
need of hammer that is higher tensioned or a low one that is brought stiffer=
with solutions to really get the piano to speak. I find this true of Mason A=
s
& BBs. I believe it partly due to the fact that Mason & Hamlins=
BBs
typically have boards that have higher than average thickness in there panel=
s.
Many old BBS I've seen are .400 thou. thick& many model As commonly=
.375 thou.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> Your typical N.Y. stwy B for example I've seen as=
thin
as ,325 but more commonly in the .340 to .350 ish. All this to say that thes=
e
design differences coupled with the effects of string scaling &a=
mp;
bearing have a definite say in how you voice your hammers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> I like Andres description of the person getting o=
lder
as an analogy to an older soundboard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> as seen below but in my opinion what Hes' say=
ing is
the same thing David is saying but from a different angle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> Yes I agree that the personality is t=
here
without as much force and so in the case of the older soundb=
oard
it won't tolerate be driven by higher tensioned/harder hammers especially Ab=
els
or hard Renners. I've heard many a flat Stwy board that sounded quite s=
weet
with lower tension/less hard hammers. Yes ,a good voicer can make many diffe=
rent
sets of hammers work on a given piano but is <STRONG>that</STRONG> hammer th=
e
best choice given the age and condition and tempermental -ism of the
"personality" due to age.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> For example would I wish to use Renner blues on an=
older
Stwy O/L from the twenties with mariginal crown & bearing. NO I wouldn't=
.
But Yes ,I could probably get a sound that was quite good, <U>but</U> why wo=
uld
I spend a day needling if I could install Ronsens Wurzens/Abel vfg or Bacon =
felt
hammers & be done in an hour & have what fit that older personality =
more
accurately with less fuss? I can't think of a reason. I beleive this another=
way
of clarifying what David was trying to say.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> I agree with Andres comments about felt completle=
y
& I'll add only one caveat & that is that It can be more than felt
preference but also the preference based on how that felt is pressed & I=
'll
leave it at that less the worms escape the can again.!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> Just my two cents. Good post Andre</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3> Dale Erwin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000>I do =
not agree
with you. A given soundboard has a 'certain' <BR>personality, and the
personality will always be the same, except that <BR>the physical 'force' =
of
that personality will diminish, just like with <BR>older people : their
personality is intact but their physical strength <BR>has gone down over t=
he
years.<BR>When the crown of an older soundboard had lost its major power, =
the
<BR>sound gets thinner and weaker, and with physical 'distortions', and
<BR>that is what we call 'older'. The character however is still there but=
<BR>maybe less 'predominant' and with the shortcomings of old age like
<BR>brittle bones, weaker organs, and alzheimers.<BR>There are certain asp=
ects
that could 'amplify' that weaker personality, <BR>and those aspects are fo=
r
instance new strings and/or new hammers.<BR>Just amplifying that older
'personality' actually creates the problem <BR>we, as technicians,
always encounter because we just energize the voice <BR>of the old
personality, but not the muscle and bone structure, so to <BR>speak.<BR>In=
other words : if we install a granite hard hammer on an old piano, <BR>we =
give
it a granite like loud old voice and if we install softer <BR>hammers we h=
ear
a renewed but velvety old voice.<BR>Through that voice we hear a more, or
less, amplified personality, but <BR>also the amplified weaknesses of an o=
lder
body. In yet more other words <BR>: installing new hammers is just a cosme=
tic
operation. The eye lashes <BR>maybe short or long, but unfortunately it is=
still very clear that this <BR>lovely old lady is ninety years old, whatev=
er
the well known possible <BR>disguises.<BR><BR>There is however an other fa=
ctor
in play here :<BR>As I explained before, there are soundboards (personalit=
ies)
which <BR>predominantly 'show' higher overtones. Bechstein soundboards are=
like <BR>that : their treble section is usually rather brilliant, where th=
eir
<BR>bass section is usually 'under developed'. In that case, when we=
<BR>install new hammers (may they be hard or soft) we have to use a voicin=
g
<BR>technique where we put the emphasis on getting out the lower partials
<BR>as much as possible. With Steinways it is the opposite : not creating =
a
<BR>hammer crown which causes the instrument to give more overtones is lik=
e
<BR>putting a bag over the head : it sounds poorly.<BR><BR>Then there is t=
he
choice of hammers, or actually the choice of hammer <BR>felt :<BR>Roughly
speaking we have the four major hammer felts we all know : the <BR>Wurzen
predominantly used by Renner (about 90%), the VFG felt <BR>predominantly u=
sed
by Abel (about 90%), the Royal George felt (of late) <BR>we find on millio=
ns
of Yamaha's, and the Bacon felt used primarily in <BR>the USA.<BR>All four=
felts are made of sheep's wool but have been fabricated in <BR>different w=
ays,
and all four have totally different characteristics, <BR>whether we like i=
t or
not.<BR>They may resemble each other because they all come from sheep's wo=
ol,
<BR>but their manufacturing process is quite different. The difference is
<BR>what we hear, and that difference is what we choose. What makes this
<BR>difference an issue here, is that some felts are used mainly in the US=
A
<BR>and some other felts (Royal george, Wurzen and VFG) are used all over
<BR>the world. In other words: we share a common felt experience and we
<BR>base our opinions and personal taste on this experience.<BR>Personal t=
aste
is something we can not really discuss, well grounded <BR>opinions are ano=
ther
matter and that is one of the difficulties here on <BR>this list : are we
talking about personal taste or are we talking about <BR>scientifically ba=
sed
opinions?<BR>The four felts I mentioned all have a different characteristi=
c,
despite <BR>their common material basis. The way these felts were made
determine <BR>their characteristics, and those characteristics are factual=
elements <BR>we can determine and classify. The way these felts sound is a=
totally <BR>different subject and that usually leads to misunderstanding a=
nd
<BR>unnecessary friction. It is not wise to discuss 'beauty' or
'ugliness'.<BR><BR>><BR>> As far as how long a hammer will last,
unlacquered versus lacquered; <BR>> the<BR>> issue seems to be how m=
uch
lacquer and how it is applied. A weak<BR>> stiffening solution
probably doesn't do much to effect the life of the<BR>> hammer. B=
ut
since lacquer gets harder and more brittle over time, a<BR>> heavily
lacquered hammer will not last in terms of controllability as<BR>> long=
as
an unlacquered hammer, assuming it hasn't been needled to <BR>>
death.<BR><BR>To get down to the core of lacquered versus unlacquered is l=
ike
this : <BR>a lacquered wool piano hammer has fibers which have been fused
together <BR>into an almost (in varying degrees) unmovable non-elastic mat=
ter
by a <BR>binding force called hammer hardener.<BR>This piano hammer consis=
ts
of a wooden molding, a staple, and a mass of <BR>fibers which originally w=
ere
resilient, with an elastic capacity which <BR>through the appliance of ham=
mer
hardening have clotted into an <BR>non-resilient and un-elastic wool mass =
we
can compare with a very sober <BR>palet (all this depending of how much
hardener was used).<BR><BR>An unlacquered wool piano hammer has a natural
resiliency (in varying <BR>degrees) and this elastic force we can use in t=
he
process of <BR>intonation. It is like the use of a multi colored palet (al=
l
this <BR>depending of how much pressure was used).<BR><BR>Get
this:<BR><BR>Crystallized or more or less non-resilient matter, like a fel=
t
covered <BR>(but hardened) drum stick, creates a 'certain' non-or-
less-resilient <BR>sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher
overtones. The <BR>spectrum is poor because of the lack of
resilience.<BR>Non-crystallized or more or less resilient matter, like a (=
non
<BR>hardened) felt covered drum stick, creates a 'certain' more-or
<BR>less-resilient sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher an=
d
<BR>lower overtones. The spectrum is rich because of the present
<BR>resilience.<BR><BR>That is literally the difference between a lacquere=
d
hammer and a non <BR>lacquered hammer, and that is a fact.<BR>Which hammer=
you
like is not my business.<BR><BR>André Oorebeek<BR><BR>><BR>><BR>&g=
t;
David Love<BR>> davidlovepianos@comcast.net<BR>><BR>> -----Origin=
al
Message-----<BR>> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
[mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On<BR>> Behalf Of Richard Brekne<BR>=
>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:04 AM<BR>> To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net;
Pianotech<BR>> Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered
hammers<BR>><BR>> ...That went to claims about soundboard condition
dictating<BR>> this or that kind of hammer. I dissagreed
...</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"=
>Erwins Pianos
Restorations <BR>4721 Parker Rd.<BR>Modesto, Ca 95357<BR>209-577-8397<BR>Reb=
uilt
Steinway , Mason &Hamlin
Sales<BR>www.Erwinspiano.com</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>