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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for your response. Only =
one so
far.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm sorry your Brombach "loner" is such =
an
unfriendly antisocial piano. I'm sure you meant "loaner"
grin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't doubt you are correct about =
twisting
causing the problem. I just would like to understand what is =
happening. If
twisting strings in the wrong direction causes the higher partials to go =
flat,
couldn't we take a string that is excessively sharp and dial in a twist =
to
correct it. Of course that is silly, but it shows my dilemma in =
trying to
explain what is going on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm still at a loss to explain why a =
string would
go radically flat at the higher partials on only one note and less so on =
other
notes. I used an Accutuner which may not have given the info =
that rct
would have regarding amplitude etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think that I used two turn twists for =
the single
wound strings. In retrospect I realized that since this was a very =
short
string piano that may have been excessive. It hadn't occurred to =
me at the
time that twists should be related to the length of the string. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recently sold a 7 foot grand that had =
bass
strings by a particular maker, and some of the double wound strings were =
somewhat dead. Having nothing to lose, I put three full turns on =
the bad
ones and they came alive. These were new strings. I probably =
won't
use that maker again. I notice that there is wide opinions =
about
twisting bass strings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One more thought! If wire =
stiffness causes
higher partials to be sharp, did my twisting in the wrong direction make =
the
wire more limber? And did it stay more limber after twisting in =
the
correct direction?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So many questions! So few
answers!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl Meyer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=joegarrett@earthlink.net
href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net">Joseph Garrett</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, 2001 =
10:43 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling Problem =
reduex</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Carl,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>A few years ago, my son worked with me in my shop, =
he
couldn't get the principle of twisting in the direction of the =
winding.
Needless to say, he twisted the bass strings of my "loner" grand, (a =
5'1"
Brombach), in the wrong direction. About 90% of those strings, even =
after I
retwisted them the correct direction, were bad. Really a nasty sound. =
I have
since replaced them, but what you experienced, I'm convinced, was due =
to
twisting in the reverse direction.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Regards, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Joe Garrett</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cmpiano@home.com href="mailto:cmpiano@home.com">Carl =
Meyer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, 2001 =
7:40
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling Problem
reduex</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ain't gonna lurk no mo, no =
mo!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm gonna tell a story. It's =
a bit sad
and embarrassing for me but it ends okay.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A young man and his sister found an =
art deco
piano on the internet a year or so ago for 10000 dollars. It =
had a
severely cracked plate in the middle section. A half moon =
crack thru
the tuning pin area and the two struts at the ends cracked about =
half way
thru. This piano was a Strohmenger made in London about =
1930. It
was 4'1". Piano was a half round</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>shape (As Victor Borge would say =
"That big fat
opera singer didn't lean on the side of the piano.") It was 2-tone, =
dark
mahogany and light maple, and the rear of the lid opened like a =
duck's rear
end. The legs swooped down to the floor to meet at the =
lyre. The
mover said "I'll never forget where you live-It's where I saw this =
butt ugly
piano". Actually, it grew on me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The piano was in Austin,Tex and I =
was shown a
Xerox of the crack. I told them that if anyone in the area =
could fix
it I could and I doubted anyone else would even try. I won't =
give you
a price tho till I see it. Well, they went ahead and bought it =
for
8000 and I did take on the job.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After repairing the plate (no I =
didn't weld it,
I re-enforced it patched it and used 1/4 thick, 2 inch wide steel =
bar to
support the sagging section and used lots of screws and steel filled =
epoxy.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now the embarrassing part. I =
rescaled the
piano and was stringing fat, dumb and happy from the top down in the =
bass
and was 2/3 finished when I realized I was twisting the strings in =
the wrong
direction. Whoops! So I corrected them and continued. =
You'll see
why I have to admit this later.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The reason this applies to scaling =
is that this
piano had 35 notes below the bass break. There were no =
agraffes at
all. Notes 36 and 37 were bichord wound strings and the next =
four
notes were bichord plain wire.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had a real problem when I chipped =
it.
Lots of chipping but </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the center section finally settled
down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now when I tried to actually tune =
it, note 35
sounded terrible. It just couldn't be tuned. I tried tuning =
the
fundamental of both strings to the accutuner and the two strings =
didn't even
sound the same. Then I found that the left strings =
partials 2-5
were 21, 3, 4, and18 cents flat. The right were 21, 18, =
21 and
38 cents flat. I sure didn't know what to do. I called =
everybody
I could think of. Nobody could give me a good =
explanation. So I
ordered a pair of the smallest universal strings I could get, put =
them on
and lo and behold, It sounded good. So I ordered four more =
strings and
used them on notes 36 and 37 ( the first notes above the bass =
break)
They weren't nearly as bad as note 35 but </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I replaced the anyway. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now after all this work, I thought =
that piano
sounder better that a lot of much larger poorly scaled grands. =
Certainly the
best sounding 4'1" I've seen.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The customer is delighted and so am =
I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some =
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Did my twisting the strings in the =
wrong
direction damage them and what exactly did it do to them? And =
why just
the top three?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If they were just bad strings, what =
was wrong
with them?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm suspicious that the string =
winder didn't
use enough tension, but would that cause the partials to go
flat?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I checked the strings diameter and =
length etc
and couldn't find anything wrong, no loose windings, nothing.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What happened? =
Anybody?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl Meyer</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=sec@overspianos.com.au =
href="mailto:sec@overspianos.com.au">Overs
Pianos</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, 2001 =
6:11
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling =
Problem
reduex</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Kevin, Joe, Ron and other lurkers,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Saw your post earlier today Kevin when you wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial =
size=-1> I've noticed
something on some newer pianos lately . . . I've been =
encountering more
and more pianos of late that seem to have a real scaling problem =
in the
low tenor section. . . but where I really see it is in the new =
Yamaha
model GA1, and . . GH1. What is happening is that the designers =
of these
pianos have put too many notes in the tenor that belong in the =
bass. As
you play chromatically down the scale, these notes start =
sounding like
"pong-pong-pong" and then you hit the bass, and they sound =
normal
again.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Your absolutely correct. Why oh why are so many manufacturers =
so
'thick' that they can't see that they're crippling their smaller =
pianos by
insisting on breaking at B27. Little pianos like the GA1 should =
break at
E32/F33 at the lowest, but they just don't get it.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial =
size=-1>
I know that this is caused by continuing to drop the tension on =
the
strings in order to get the fundamental down to the required =
frequency,
but you reach a certain point, and you get a tone that seems =
hollow and
is very difficult to fit in with the rest of the
tuning.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>As soon as the long bridge turns and heads for the bass side =
of the
case the scale has had it. If the break was higher up the tension =
wouldn't
fall away so dramatically.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial =
size=-1>
I've had some partial success with carefully doping the hammers, =
and
voicing the bass down, plus leveling strings, straightening =
termination
points etc., but not to any totally satisfactory
result.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>No it's not possible to get it satisfactory. But why should
technicians in the field have to go to such measures just to get =
the
things to sound somewhat like a piano. And it's only half a fix =
anyhow,
because the problem is with the scale.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron N's suggestion was sound, and I have no doubt that =
installing
bichord covers for a few notes will make the piano 'less bad' as =
he says.
But I'm more in favour of installing a tenor bridge and completely =
rescaling the thing. But you wouldn't bother with a little entry =
level
piano like the GA1.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Kevin continued later in the day;</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>Thanks =
to all who
have responded. . . . . . . . I have nothing but the greatest =
respect
for Yamaha, and their products, (I own two) but I can't =
understand why
that company, which is the most advanced in the world, could =
produce a
product with such obvious poor planning.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While Yamaha certainly know how to manufacture pianos to a =
blueprint,
they get the blueprint wrong. They don't seem to have a clue about =
scale
design with their smaller grands (ie, anything under and before =
the C7F),
and there's not a Japanese manufacturer with a decent upright =
scale.
Furthermore, both the Yamaha CF and Kawai's EX are basically =
scaling
clones of the Steinway D (all three have got a speaking length at =
F21 of
183 cm - what a magic number this must be!). Why? Why do this? =
What's so
wrong with doing a bit of original thinking. We've all basically =
wasted a
whole century by trying to follow in the foot steps of one =
company. Why do
this? We homo sapiens are supposed to be intelligent, but =
sometimes we
seem to be no more creative than sheep.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>The =
Japanese are
such industrious and intelligent people, that you would think =
that
surely they would stop and go back to the drawing-board before =
shipping
one.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There are intelligent folks and idiots amongst all =
nationalities. We
just need to believe in ourselves now and then. We can move =
forward if we
let ourselves do it. It's no use going back to the 'drawing board' =
only to
produce the same old trash. We need to rethink the parameters, and =
it
needs to happen in our generation. Actually, I believe this list =
just
might make it possible. Isn't that an exciting prospect.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial =
size=-1>
If I tuned nothing but Yamaha grands, I could spend out my days =
in
relative happiness.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I couldn't. They're fine while ever the wether stays stable. =
But as
soon as the wether changes the tuning stability is 'out the =
window', and
its scale and down bearing and sound board related.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>But I =
just don't
get it with these really small ones that are starting to come =
out on the
market.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Many designers seem to be such 'traditionaloids', they can't =
bring
themselves to move the break away from A#26/B27. That's where it's =
always
been historically - so we can't mess with tradition can we? It's a =
similar
situation with 7' grands which break at E20/F21. Just because the =
concert
piano breaks at F21, why should the 7' scale be ruined by breaking =
it at
F21. A 145 cm F21 speaking length on the 7' is going to be =
somewhat short
on break % compared to the 183 cm F21 on the concert piano (and =
there's a
'paddock full' of these ordinary 7' pianos out there, which could =
be so
much better at no extra cost). Let's damn tradition, if there's a =
better
way of designing than the traditional way.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial =
size=-1>
But I'm not working to please myself. I just don't want a =
customer to
buy one, and then think that it's a tuning issue, like I should =
be able
to just fix it in three to five minutes. I'm a =
"technician" not
a "magician".</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Exactly, but you'd need to be a magician to get many of those =
stupid
little designs to hold tune for longer than takes for you to get =
your kit
back in the car - if indeed you were able to get it into tune at =
all. I
had an experience some years ago when I got a call-back to a =
newish
Japanese 131 cm top of the range vertical I'd tuned the week =
before. "It's
gone out of tune", she bleated over the phone. When I checked the =
piano,
it was the fallen-over tension area just before the cross which =
had gone
quite sharp (it had rained during the week since the tuning hadn't =
it!).
When I tried to explain that the problem was with the scale design =
of the
piano, the client didn't believe me. She accused me of =
incompetence and of
trying to pass the blame onto the piano - which couldn't be the =
problem,
after all, it was a new piano! I was less than impressed with the =
prospect
of wearing the blame for something which I knew to be due to poor =
scale
design.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There, I feel a whole lot better now. I've been quietly =
bubbling over
for a while on this issue. Thanks Kevin.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We must widen our design perspective. It is now possible to =
design
and build pianos which are better than anything which has gone =
before.
Let's do it! Even the cheaper pianos could still have better =
design.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Over and out.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron O</DIV>
<DIV>-- <BR>______________________________<BR><BR>Website:
=
http://www.overspianos.com.au<BR>Email: &nbs=
p;
=
mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au<BR>______________________________</DIV></BL=
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