<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C3F30C.E9640830"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="time"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="date"/>  <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple = style='tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=Section1> <o:p> </o:p> Ouch!! I particularly like the phrase “Gallic = fiend”! <o:p></o:p> Receiving the Pianotech list in digest form as I do, I long for = the day when I will be able to instruct the server to delete posts from certain individuals before forwarding to my box. <o:p></o:p> Mr. Mannino will most certainly NOT = be on that list of do-not-forward posters.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <![if !supportLists]>-         <![endif]>Mark<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> -----Original = Message----- From: Donald Mannino [mailto:donmannino@comcast.net] Sent: <st1:date = Month="2" Day="14" Year="2004">Saturday, February 14, 2004</st1:date> = <st1:time Hour="13" Minute="51">1:51 PM</st1:time> To: oleg-i@noos.fr; = Pianotech Subject: RE: ABS Parts = and Objectivity of Posting <o:p> </o:p> Isaac, You are entitled to your opinions, but really, what you state is really = a lot of crazy talk.  Perhaps this is partially caused by your having to = post to this list in your second language - it is understandable that your = writing would not be as clear and carefully phrased as it should be. Those who have been to my seminars know that I do not hold back in = criticizing Kawai pianos in those areas where I am aware of faults.  If I knew = of the problems you have described, I would not bother to write and argue = against them - that is not my way, and I value my personal integrity too much to do = so. That said, the problems you have described regarding bushings and ABS = parts having sharp edges do not make sense, and in my 8 years as technical = support manager for Kawai in North America not once have I ever heard of or = experienced myself any sharp edges or burrs on ABS repetition levers.  These = are the kinds of non-factually based criticisms that usually come from those who = work with competing dealerships, or for one reason or another are predisposed = to dislike this brand of pianos. I have observed that Isaac continually brings up ABS in discussions = which are not related to the topic.  It would seem that this is an effort on = his part to: a. Discredit Kawai in general b. Draw me into an argument c. Tout his technical superiority over the rest of the world's = technicians The original topic of the thread was about Kawai's new adjustable touch = action in upright pianos, and Isaac launches into an epistle of diatribes = against Kawai.  He never gives indication with his signature stating why he = might be biased against Kawai, but the content is very consistent.  Why = is this? In reading many of Isaac's posts, letter C (above) seems to be the most = common goal, and as such I usually don't feel the posts are worth responding = to.  In this case, letter A seems to be more the purpose, so I felt I should respond. With this preamble completed, I would like to comment specifically on of Isaac's Kawai-bashing statements: "defects due to the molding process = leaving sharp edges at the roller window" Wood parts regularly have milling defects at the jack window.  On brand new Renner and Steinway parts I have had to = scrape this edge with a razor knife (a much better solution than sanding, by the = way) to eliminate artifacts of the milling process.  I have never, in the literally tens of thousands of ABS parts I have worked on, seen any = burrs or sharp edges here.  If Isaac really did find some kind of molding = artifact in a repetition lever, this would be a very rare and surprising item - = it should be treated as a fluke, repaired, and not turned into an argument = against ABS parts. "I stand my point that Kawai never = understood piano touch enough they have always been a tad unresponsive that is = frustrating for players and techs as the instruments could be more musical if = so." For one who apparently has no knowledge of the Kawai = R&D department, and seems to not be aware of the very common selection of = Kawai pianos by competitors at piano competitions, this statement of Isaac's = shows only ignorance.  Isaac, have you ever met one of Kawai's concert technicians who supposedly (in your terms) do not understand piano = touch?  These are the people who finish off the EX concert grands and the = Shigeru Kawai pianos.   Every one of them spent 2 years in = <st1:place>Europe</st1:place> during their training, and I am very confident that their r�sum�s = would embarrass most piano tuners in the world. They work intimately with the = highest caliber of pianists and with Kawai's rather extensive R&D = department, and to say that Kawai doesn't understand proper piano touch really is a = personal insult to these very fine technicians. As to the results of Kawai's labors, we regularly survey buyers and = potential buyers of the Shigeru Kawai pianos, and the following are the most = common types of comments about these pianos: "Wonderful singing tone, very expressive" "Incredibly sensitive action, it will do anything I ask of = it." Now I know that these kinds of solicited comments are not to be taken = overly seriously, but my point is that we do not get complaints that the = Shigeru Kawai actions are unresponsive. "as soon as you install better front = punching" Here you are throwing another arcane and unclear criticism = in without being concise.  Kawai knows exactly what it is doing with = the front punching firmness - as a classical pianist myself, I very strongly dislike the feeling of overly hard front punchings.  Here you are = simply stating a personal preference as a fact of inferiority.  If you do = not like Kawai's punching hardness, can you conceive of the concept that = others do like them?  Even others of excellent ability, skill and = knowledge? Here, I will restate this in your style of writing: Hard front rail = punchings are a definite sign of inferiority in the piano and should be changed to = a higher quality, more forgiving cloth.  The thumpy, unforgiving end = to the keystroke makes the piano tone percussive, weakens projection, and = damages the tendons of the pianist over time.  Any technician who prefers hard punchings needs to change careers, as he or she is obviously not = sensitive to musicality in the instrument. {To all other readers besides our Gallic fiend please note - the above = paragraph was parody, not my actual opinion!  ;-)  } "It can be a = psychological impression, but as yet those action with aluminum rails have something = in the tone I don't like the most" I can unequivocally confirm to you, this is a = psychological problem.  The Kawai rail has been extremely well researched and = designed, with a combination of very strong vertical beams, serrated surface with = rubber strip to assist with stable part spacing and alignment, and a wood = letoff button rail inserted underneath.  I can tell you, though, there are some definite 'advantages' of a wood = rail over Kawai's aluminum rail: 1. Much more energy is lost in fortissimo playing with wood rails due to = flex and vibration, especially in the bass area.  This has the benefit = of keeping the piano from being too loud, and keeps some of the pianist's = energy from making loud noises and offending any nearby listeners. 2. When the wood vibrates in reaction to the hammer striking the string, = there is a pleasing "knock" added to the tone of the piano. 3. Action parts to not stay screwed down tight nearly as long in wood rails.  This provides the piano technicians with a stable source = of  income. 4. Sandpaper on top of the wood rail enhances the quality of tone, = giving it that gritty, papery quality we all love.  Any technician who cannot = hear this is most assuredly in the wrong business - it is obvious! ;-) "I am unsure it is really the case, Kawai is not synonym of very = good cloth and felts to me, for some reason (see the = <st1:City><st1:place>Boston</st1:place></st1:City> hammers)" And you should remain unsure, dear fiend, as this is another bunch of = nonsense. Let me first say that <st1:City><st1:place>Boston</st1:place></st1:City> = pianos are made to Steinway Specifications, and any criticisms of those = instruments should be aimed at Steinway.  If Steinway wanted the factory in = <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> to change the hammer felts, then Kawai would do so. There is no company making pianos today who does not occasionally have a = piano needing service to the action centers, Kawai included.  Making = reliable, firm action centers is one of the most difficult parts of piano = making.  The parts must work in tropical climates as well as arctic ones, and the manufacturer must try to fit the pins in the bushing for the widest = level of reliability.  This means that the tone under dry conditions will = not be ideal, as the pins will be on the edge of being too loose.  This need to = fit the action centers for reliable operation in all climates is not a = reflection of cloth quality or the surrounding material, as the requirement holds just = as true for Kawai grand hammer shanks (wood material) as it does for our = wippen flanges (ABS).  In other words, the behavior of the different = action centers within the exact same piano in the exact same conditions with = the same cloth and different surrounding materials (wood vs ABS) is essentially = the same.  There is no better evidence than this of the fallacy of this = old argument regarding wood parts giving a better fit with the bushing and = pin. I would encourage everyone to take note of Yamaha's grand hammer = flanges, in which they apply a cross lamination to the wood were the bushings are = glued in.  Guess what?  This stabilizes the wood, reducing the = potential for the hole to change shape from humidity changes.  Kind of like = plastic, hmm? I should say that I am also guilty of this same argument in the = past.  I once stated in my seminar on action centers that the wood parts must = give a more consistent fit, but after testing the idea carefully and actually = working with direct comparisons of wood and ABS parts, I found that I was = wrong.  Perhaps Isaac will someday learn his error as well. "(and I really hear = the plastic "thump" of the damper levers as something not in its place in = a piano)." It is amazing to me how a lack of understanding makes = people say such wrong things.  If we made an ABS soundboard, everyone would = rightly criticize it for being dead, not making any tone.  ABS is a very = inert, quiet material which dissipates vibrational energy.  It cannot = possibly add to the thump of the dampers!  But inexperienced people hear a = noise in a piano, and instead of investigating the cause of the noise they see = the ABS and say - "Ah, that's it - cheap plastic" or something = similar. I used to keep track of the number of 'tooners' who would call me at = Kawai and say something like "This action is clicking because of the plastic = parts - you know, Steinway had this same problem with plastic (Teflon) bushings = and they stopped making them!"  When I heard this I would add = another hatch mark to a certain notebook cover, and patiently explain yet again = that these actions have normal cloth bushings of a very high quality, and the technician might want to check again for the source of the noise.  = Usually we end up having to send another technician out, and it is never = in the bushings or the ABS - the most common cause would be that the hammer = heads had come loose on the shanks because of dryness.  The original = technician gets the piano owner upset over nothing, and in the end looks like a jackass = to all. "I also noticed it = can be noisy , may be the rollers are artificial leather also (most probably) as for = Yamaha, and that makes too much synthetic on synthetic contact paths ? Yamaha = rollers and backchecks are very good for one - and they are not leather so not = all synthetic parts are equal." Yamaha and Kawai (and some other piano makers) buy the = artificial buckskin from the same supplier in = <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>.&nb= sp; The advantages are that it has much better cushioning to reduce action = noise, and it is very, very consistent in thickness, firmness, and = elasticity.  Very fine buckskin is more resistant to squeaking noises, but otherwise = has a lot of drawbacks.  This comment that it doesn't happen in Yamaha = pianos may mean that some kind of Yamaha angels have prevented Isaac from = experiencing it, but I have personally had to apply Teflon powder to Yamaha knuckles = (as well as Young Chang and others) to stop the same noise.  I recently serviced a very nice Hamburg Steinway B which was squeaking and groaning = very badly here.   No matter what the materials, knuckles (rollers) can  squeak, and Teflon powder usually solves it. By the way, a very common source of squeaks in any knuckle material is = human skin oil, from people rubbing them with their fingers.  As to the allusion that ABS wippens are a little too heavy, this is a = valid criticism - although one which produced complaints almost exclusively = from dealers who sell competing products.  Although the Kawai action was engineered to perform well with this slight extra mass in the wippen, = Kawai is just now introducing a new carbon strengthened ABS action, which allows = us to bring the mass in the wippen assembly down.  This new action is = going to make a bit of a stir in the piano market, I think. There is nothing anyone can do to stop someone from posting all sorts of nonsensical opinions on this mail list.  I generally don't respond = - I have learned that it doesn't pay to roll in the mud with pigs, because = they like it too much!  In this case I have tried to at least slop out = the pig sty a little, but am now going to depart for a quick shower. Don Mannino RPT Kawai = <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region><b= r> <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html>