<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type = content=text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY text=#000000 bgColor=#ccccff> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Hello,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>A common idea is that higher or larger stretch, may be more musically = forgiving that what tend to follow the natural justness of the instrument.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>IMHO, this is because the extra stretch is adding a new temperament or = justness method, and that  fraud the ear, that instinctively tend to agree = with the pitches as being good.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>A concert tuners told me once that if a note is too low it will be more = easily noticed that if it is too high.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Adding that to the acoustic effect of the room, that ask for higher treble, and = it is understandable that highly stretched tunings are rarely problematic.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>What I've find is that they are less good for all close harmony music, and I = like to avoid the kind of "straightness" that I feel is induced with high stretch.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>But seems evident to me that it is easier to open the tuning a lot, = depending of the room and the instrument, as we listen for a tone that is reflected by = the room's acoustic.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Violinist like to play the high treble really high, but when = they play with the piano they correct themselves, because they understand the = features of the instrument.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>That is easier for them to correct their justness than for the piano tuner to = try to meet the violin high treble I think.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Best regards.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Isaac OLEG</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=563013321-02082004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part de</B> hubert liverman<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> lundi 2 août 2004 = 22:44<BR><B>À :</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: Re: a violonist trained ear (was = tuning for violonist)]<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was trained as a bass trombonist.I = attended Auburn University,Manhattan School of Music and Columbia University. I = have played everything from Symphony to Cercus. That is the lot of a free = lance musician.Trombonists need to play 'pure' 3rds,4ths 5ths,unisons,and = octaves. Then we adjust it on the fly, dependant on the key, type of ensemble, = era, and style of music being performed. The Beethoven Three Equali is an = example. Things get tougher, as in Bhrams 1'st Symphony (in C major) = when we sit around for 35 minutes or so and come in pianissimo on a chorale in A = major. It is difficult for the 2nd trombone to play the 3rd of the chord in tune = on that very exposed entrance. When you add a piano to the mix, as in a piano Concerto, the strech factor comes into play and we must learn to = adjust. Especially the lower parts, we have to think low to what we hear = natrually (?). I have known many excellent musicians of all ilk who stumble over = the "comma", and confuse themselves. Jazz and commercial musicians are = more forgiving than some of the classical types in regards to Piano verses = the rest of the "Band".  This discussion has been going on for = 2500 some odd years and will continue forever.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hubert Liverman</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Opelika, AL</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR><BR>Interesting enough, slide trombone players = tend to like and favor pure thirds when performing in trombone ensembles. = Beethoven's trombone trio, one of his first compositions, performed at his = funeral, gives a very nice exemple of this. It requires something like "just = intonation", pure thirds and pure fifths, so that the players have to adapt and = correct their pitch constantly, depending on the harmonic function of the = interval they play. When performed by great trombone players, it sounds magnificent.  Anybody ever got complaints about the beating major = 3rds on a trombone player's piano ?  <SPAN = class=moz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) </SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR>Of course this is my experience as a = music-loving amateur, and deductions I make from my not-very-exhaustive knowledge = of those instruments and the temperament theory. Any thoughts ?   = <BR><BR>Jean Debefve,<BR>Belgium  <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>