<html> <body> Matthew, They sell a partial finder which is like a piece of cardboard with the partials laid out where you would hear them on the keyboard.  I'm sleepy so I can't remember who right now.  Your first partial is the primary, the second is the octave, the third is the octave and a fifth(I think, yeah my eyelids are drooping too) and the fourth is the double octave.  So, for example, play C3, then play C5.  The ringing in C3 that corresponds to the pitch of C5 would be your fourth partial.  The second partial of C4 would also correspond to C5.  When tuning a 4:2 (such as for the aural PTG test) you would make those to partials syncronous. The problem starting aural tuners (me particularly) have is distinguishing the partials.  If your hearing is good you will be hearing all kinds of stuff buzzing.  Sometimes using plain old earplugs helps a lot.  You get to hear the lower partials more easily while all that high irrelevant (for now) stuff is shut out. Good luck, Andrew At 09:53 AM 9/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Now, how exactly do you tune the fourth partial of the lower octave note to the second partial of the upper octave note?  I have heard that some techs just tune the octave 1/2 a beat wide, and leave it at that.   Now you can call me stupid   Matthew Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca> wrote: <dl> <dd>Hi Mathew, <dd>Current thought is that a unison is the only "pure" item in tuning. An <dd>Octave can only be "beat free" at one partial at a time. Do an archive <dd>search for octaves and you will get loads of hits. <dd>narrowest possible octave 2:1; a3 to a4 beatless at a4 <dd>wider 4:2; a3 to a4 beatless at a5 <dd>wider 6:3; a3 to a4 beatless at e6 <dd>It is common to tune a3 to a4 somewhere between 4:2 and 6:3--just to make <dd>the task a little more difficult. I believe this is what Virgil Smith does <dd>when he attempts to tune the "whole sound" of the octave. I.E. his 4:2 <dd>beats at a rate which may "cancel" the beat of the 6:3. How long such a <dd>"balance" will last is dependant on nothing in the enviroment changing, <dd>including barometric pressure. <dd>More on unisons: <dd>We also have to deal with the "coupled" motion of piano strings. The bridge <dd>is a f! lexible termination. Some studies have suggested that a one hertz <dd>difference in two strings will result in zero beating heard. One hertz at <dd>A4 is approximately 4 cents--a huge number for a unison to be "out". There <dd>is also some suggestion that a truely "pure" unison gives the piano a <dd>rather "dead" sound with poor sustain. <dd>Inharmonicity: <dd>There is no doubt that the impedance mismatch between the strings, bridge <dd>and soundboard produces a measureable effect on the width of octaves. In <dd>some cases this "para inharmoncity" can be a negative number. <dd>Translation--the narrowest octave would be smaller than a "theorectical" 2:1. <dd>Setting Temperament: <dd>I'd suggest you use one of the "self correcting" temperments such as the <dd>Baldassin-Sanderson. Have a look here: <dd><a href="http://www.accu-tuner.com/SATIIImanual/apf.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.accu-tuner.com/SATIIImanual/apf.html</a> <dd>At 07:42 PM 21/09/2004 -0700, you wrote: <dd>> need some help from all of you. Is it true that the two things that <dd>&g! <dd>t;remain pure in a piano when we tune is unisons and octaves? And if we do <dd>>that, the octave will have a slight beat to it, right? I think I missed <dd>>something. You guys are great! Thanks!! <dd>>Matthew <dd>>__________________________________________________ <dd>>Do You Yahoo!? <dd>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <dd>><a href="http://mail.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://mail.yahoo.com</a> <dd>Regards, <dd>Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. <dd><a href="mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca" eudora="autourl">mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca</a> <a href="http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/" eudora="autourl">http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/</a> <dd>3004 Grant Rd. <dd>REGINA, SK <dd>S4S 5G7 <dd>306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner <dd>_______________________________________________ <dd>pianotech list info: <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </dl> Do you Yahoo!? <a href="http://vote.yahoo.com">vote.yahoo.com</a> - Register online to vote today! </blockquote></body> </html>