<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2668" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV> <DIV>Uhhhhhhh .... no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4ths can and do beat at 1 bps or (for the truly brave) up to about 2 bps. 5ths should NEVER make this much noise. In any octave the 4th must beat faster than the 5th.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Center-piano fifths roll like swells on the ocean, 4ths have a true (albeit slow) beat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't imagine having equal beating 4ths and  5ths within any octave ... maybe something has been misunderstood or misstated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV> <DIV>Salem, Missouri</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ivories.52@earthlink.net href="mailto:ivories.52@earthlink.net">Geoff Sykes</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 08/12/2005 1:08:48 AM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: newbie questions</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You said: <FONT color=#000000>In a C to C octave the lower 5th interval C to G will be the same beat rate as the higher 4th interval G to C.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>As I continue practicing my aural tuning skills I'm discovering all kinds of "Aha!" relationships. The above relationship is one of them. Which leads me to today's naive question: Is this also true when the 4th & 5th are switched? IE: In the C to C octave described above, is the lower 4th interval, (C to F), then also the same beat rate as the higher 5th interval, (F to C)?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Geoff Sykes</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Assoc. Los Angeles</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=125515905-12082005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>alan forsyth<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: newbie questions<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>Too late, I'm already asleep ....zzzzzzzz</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2> PS Consider the following;</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"it would seem to me that there would be opportunity for higher partials to be all over the place "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That is the very reason why you should listen to them so that you CAN put them in their place. They are very audible in the lower tenor and bearing scale.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"with the inharmonicity differences in wire. I.e., a plain wire and wound wire. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would this not be the very reason that manufacturers prefer the scale design of low tension in the lower tenor to that of equalizing breaking strain  as in Yamaha GH1?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"I still don't see how you use that beat speed to put the wire being tuned into your tuning pattern. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The second partial intersection of the 5ths would fall in to the same region on the keyboard as the first partial intersection of the other main intervals ; 3rds, 4ths and 6ths.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In a C to C octave the lower 5th interval C to G will be the same beat rate as the higher 4th interval G to C.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Once again</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not running for office, but for cover!</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=josephspiano@comcast.net href="mailto:josephspiano@comcast.net">Joseph Alkana</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 12, 2005 3:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: newbie questions</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Considering the spread of a fifth, it would seem to me that there would be opportunity for higher partials to be all over the place with the inharmonicity differences in wire. I.e., a plain wire and wound wire. By my ears, the beats of the higher partials are no where near double sometimes, but I haven't really got into it yet. I still don't see how you use that beat speed to put the wire being tuned into your tuning pattern. More info, please.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joseph Alkana RPT</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=alan@forsythalan.wanadoo.co.uk href="mailto:alan@forsythalan.wanadoo.co.uk">alan forsyth</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:40 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: newbie questions</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>The beats are twice the speed so you can make a much more accurate judgment as to the correctness of your interval.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=josephspiano@comcast.net href="mailto:josephspiano@comcast.net">Joseph Alkana</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:25 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: newbie questions</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And just exactly what would you discern from hearing the second, or higher coincident partials? How would you make use of the information at that point?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just curious.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Joseph Alkana RPT</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=alan@forsythalan.wanadoo.co.uk href="mailto:alan@forsythalan.wanadoo.co.uk">alan forsyth</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:57 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> newbie questions</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>From Alan Barnyard's post: "5ths have such a slow beat that they are hard for most to tune accurately, as a primary interval"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's much easier to use 5ths by listening to the second intersection of partials and not the first. However you will have to sensitize your hearing to discern that point.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>AF</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>