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<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Those interesting comments say to =
me that
the cultural ocean is well between us when it comes to tone liking
!</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>When I was reading the list 8 year =
ago or
so, there was a very reasonable trend that say that not a technian would =
use
original Steinway hammers on his own personal Steinway, (huge global =
assessment
in those times) Apparently things have changed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Many studies have been conducted =
on the
piano hammer, viewed as a non linear spring. I suggest that what changes =
with
the use of the lacquer is that part of the model (the tone tells me that =
impregnated hammers are producing a more linear response). </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>The resiliency induced by =
hardeners give
ALWAYS a somewhat straight tone, with a restricted dynamic range, =
particularly
at forte level, whatever the dynamic is and whatever pleasing the tone
is.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>I'd call that articulation of =
tone, and
(some) pianists employ that for expressiveness.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN><SPAN
class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>That mean the change in the =
spectra is more
contrasted between soft and loud play, and you can search for tone =
density with
your touch.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>What I hear and feel is that seem =
lively
part of the tone is immediately killed with the use of hardeners (in the =
shoulders) and is replaced by the "lacquer" tone, that is then present =
in all
ranges of dynamics (Ill describe it like having a permanent volume in =
tone
whatever the output force is). Then it is impossible to phrase when =
playing, the
tone density is poor, the power can't show up, it stay at the =
surface of
things ...</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>What Steinway masters tech say =
about voicing
is : "vocing is the art of getting the ABSOLUTE ELASTICITY of the piano =
hammer
at the highest level of play"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Using added substances is indded a =
shortcut
to create that resiliency at forte levels, it is also a mean to correct
unsatisfactory felts, and it is not new to us that it have been employed =
,
historically , since the 60 ' . But it was always to fight an excess of =
inertia
in the felt, the original intention was certainly not to put hardeners =
in
perfectly sounding hammers.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>If we want to go one step further, =
we could
say that a good piano tone is not necessarly nice when played by a =
brutal or
inexperienced pianist. We have to create some easy beauty for the owner =
so he
will be inspired, but it is more important to give an instrument that =
provide a
full range of tone.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Yes the pianist is happy when =
you give
him an easy instrument, for instance that well detached and pearl =
sounding tone
of some German Steinway, that please the amator, but does not allow to =
play
legato, nor to have the perfect repetition (regulation tricks to get the =
most
power at the expense of the tone palette)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Another tendancy, that is almost =
lost today,
is to provide the pianist a "blackboard" where he can create his tone. =
enough
power, enough spectra, a precise dynamic without holes, and the true =
artist can
play, while a shy or uninspired pianist will make harsh =
noises.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>That is a comprehensible tendency =
among
technicians to try to provide a nice and beautiful tone, but we forget =
often
that, even if we play piano a little, we are not really pianists most of =
the
time. Giving a too nice tone is often at the same time leaving a hole
somewhere.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Stephane's comment is welll true, =
one get
accustomed with the tone and Music he hear dayly, that is why it is so =
difficult
to learn to listen in an analytic way, the tone of a piano =
.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>I have heard some (very few ) =
lacquered US
type pianos and I believe I understand what kind of tone you are =
accustomed to,
I'd say it most often lack darkness and deepness, and too much volume is =
present
at piano level. Sure indeed it is VERY pleasing, but in my view it is =
less
manageable, the pianist have too little material to play with. (I =
listened to
records also). </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>I made my experiments with lacquer =
and iron
as well . Have a nice week end you all !</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Isaac OLEG</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN><SPAN
class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004>Cheers.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=669592309-24042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la =
part de</B>
Erwinspiano@aol.com<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> samedi 24 avril 2004
04:04<BR><B>À :</B> pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Objet :</B> =
Re: Lacquer or
what?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/23/2004 8:04:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial>The thing is that hardening... just about no matter how =
you go
about <BR>doing it, works to the detriment of felts natural
resiliancy. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3>>> <STRONG>OK Ric ,I'll bite. Yes in theory I =
guess
that's true but I think the real problem & thus misconception &
revulsion of lacquers as voicing solution comes from A tooo soft =
hammer
& toooo much lacquer(or whatever) in attempt to rectify a =
manufacturing
problem.</STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial>David <BR>Stanwood has done some interesting research =
into that
aspect of this <BR>whole subject matter and has a very interesting =
lecture
with some very <BR>illustrative high magnification =
photos.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> <FONT size=3>>><STRONG> I would find this =
interesting as
I do of most the things Dave expolres but it wouldn't suddenly change =
may
philosophy of tone & voicing.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial>You will harden up the hammers with laquer... and =
depending on what
is <BR>used on what you can impart a different kind of
<<resiliancy>> from the <BR>new combined felt/laquer =
material that
results. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> <STRONG><FONT size=4>>>Resielency is
resiliency</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial><U><STRONG>But it will impart a</STRONG></U>
<BR><U><STRONG>different kind of sound quality then natural felt =
resiliency
will,</STRONG></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> <FONT size=3><STRONG> Yes & no. Natural felt =
resiency.??
Giant can O- definition worms.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG> First lets clear something =
up for
perspectives & definitions sake. No one who is a serious =
student of
voicing wants a hammer that is to soft or to hard. Or under resilient or =
over
resilient? We all want Goldilocks porridge & piano hamrs to be =
juuuusst
right. If you have a Renner hammer that's a bit to soft =
&,occasionly
it happens, what will you do? You file iron& juice & then play =
in
time.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> If I get a Ronsen ,Stwy ,Isaac =
hammrs
that a bit to hard what do I do?</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> I needle, reshape & a =
little fine
filing & play in time</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> My point is that if hammers are very =
close to a
desired stiffness & require modest efforts of either technique to =
achieve
desired results then how far apart are we in our definition of =
traditional
voicing techniques, or the final auditory outcome. How far on =
our
thinking of resilience. Not very. So the sound are not going to be very
different. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> On the other hand If I =
have more
natural felt resilience left in the hammer without over densification =
&
extra heat then which hamrs actually more resilience? =
Once again
define resilence.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> The one requiring 50 strokes of =
needles
per side or the hmr that requires only 6 to 8 or perhaps a =
light
solution of juice to stiffen the felt.? You decide. I've already =
voted
& my elbow & ears are happy. I usaully get 90% of what I =
want
tonally with zero needles.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> Here to me is the =
magic &
that is that what we all actually want & must have for tone
production is limited resielence not maximium resilence. Our
semantics on this subject are kinda screwed up or at least I
am.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> I haven't even gotten to =
"Traditional" yet but
I'm guessin you can read it be between the lines. Maybe
later............</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial>which <BR>you may or may not find pleasing. Voicing =
is a
hugely subjective... one <BR>of the most subjective things in our
buisness.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> <FONT size=3><STRONG>>>>To this I can quite agree. =
Also its'
what we get comfortable with & what our tonal preferences =
are. I
bet most avid voicers aren't far apart in what they call great
tone.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial><BR><BR>Again... try out different approaches and find =
what you
personally like <BR>best. We all in the end impart some of our own =
creativity
to the <BR>instruments we work on, and thats good.... yeilds variety =
which in
turn <BR>insures there is something for everyone out =
there.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=5>>. Yeah Man!!</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT
face=Arial><BR><BR>As for me... I'll put up a fine <FONT
size=3><STRONG>traditional</STRONG></FONT> voiced hammer against =
<BR>anything
else out there with 100% clear confidence. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> <FONT size=4> </FONT> <FONT size=4>Me too Ric
100%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> "<FONT size=4>Traditon" Tevia</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> Happy saturday</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> Dale</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" =
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Erwins Pianos
Restorations <BR>4721 Parker Rd.<BR>Modesto, Ca =
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