<DIV>Thanks for the replies.  I am practicing my tuning on a 1913 Hinze upright.  Is that doing me more harm than good here?  I think it is hard to hear lots of stuff on that piano, but then again, I am a beginner, so I don't know if it's more the piano or more me not having trained ears yet.  I know lots of families with much newer pianos, should I try to hook up with one of them and maybe work it out with them to practice my tuning on it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Matthew<BR><BR><B><I>BobDavis88@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR> <DIV>Matthew writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I tune the temperament octave (A3-A4), it needs to be a 4:2 octave, correct?  </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No. Read the many replies which said that it should usually be wider than that.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>And one way to test this octave is to play the A two octaves above the lower note as the test key, to hear the partials in the octave, am I right?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not exactly, but read Don Rose's comments on ghosting.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>  If the octave you are testing has no beat whatsoever, you have a perfect temperament octave, is this true?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No. There is no such thing as a beatless octave. An octave which is not beating at one level, such as 4:2, will be beating at all other coincident partials, such as 2:1, 6:3, 8:4. The higher the beatless coincident is in the chain, the wider the octave. A good compromise octave is usually pretty quiet, though, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Matthew,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have kept this trail of posts on octave tuning, please go back and re-read it, and the links to which you were referred, including the ones to the AccuTuner manual Appendices F and H. People are happy to spend time helping you, but you've got to do your homework and read the replies. At the risk of repetition, I include, directly below, a copy of my post from last week on this subject:</DIV> <DIV>Bob Davis</DIV> <DIV>-------------</DIV> <DIV>Matthew's original question was how to tune a 4:2 octave. Several people, myself included, sent the tests, aural and visual. Whether that [meaning 4:2] is appropriate for the temperament octave on a particular piano is a second question. Tuning so that "the 10th is just noticeably faster than the third" might produce a good width of octave, but it is NOT a 4:2. [It's wider] <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A clean 4:2 octave IS wide at 2:1, and narrow at 6:3. Most aural tuners naturally gravitate towards a temperament octave that is very slightly wide of 4:2 ("the 10th is just noticeably faster than the third"), which will be substantially wide of 2:1 and a tiny narrow of 6:3. This gives an octave that is pretty clean-sounding, and produces fifths which are pretty clean and fourths that aren't too trashy. Any octave size can be divided into 12 equal half steps. A true 4:2 octave will produce cleaner fourths and more movement in the fifths, and on most pianos will be unnecessarily narow. However, on some pianos with high inharmonicity, a wide temperament octave added to a clean octave below, will produce a double octave that is too noisy. It's a balancing act. </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p> <hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br><a href="http://vote.yahoo.com">vote.yahoo.com</a> - Register online to vote today!