<html> <body> Greetings Andre,             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   I have a few thoughts of why this is so. 1.   In the discussion it has been assumed the hammer immediately moves upwards.  Not always . ppp Yes, fff No. At about Mezzo,  the inertia and mass of the hammer will cause the shank to bend and the hammer dip downwards, before starting to travel towards the string.  If every thing is well regulated there is less loss of energy in the loose mechanical coupling of all the respective action parts.  The more energy that is retained in the bent shank, the faster it will rebound from the string as it releases it's energy.  The tighter the let off within concert reg limits, the more pronounced the effect.. Terry mentioned the base ball bat follow through.   The bat bends in exactly the same manner. Just at the point of release the bend energy gives the ball a little extra 'pop'.  Over simplified I know.  But a reasonable Hypothesis. 2.  Any regulation, tuning, or voicing action, will change the personality of the instrument, and will have a profound effect on the pianist.  So the pianist will adapt to take advantage of the effect.   They will do it subliminally, and will never say to you. WOW the after touch is so well defined. 3.  One of the reasons Werzen felt hammers work so nicely, is the elastic effect of the shoulders springing the hammer from the string.   Dwell time (The amount of time the hammer stays in contact with the string) is every thing, when it comes to producing good tone. Just my thought's on the subject Regards Roger At 08:21 AM 4/2/2005, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">OK you guys and gals,= Let me first tell you that, from the beginning, there were techs who said that an improvement of tone was not possible "because the hammer hits the string first", and that they could not understand how it is possible that a firmer punching would have this result at all. They are right in assuming that, if the hammer hits the string first, an improvement of tone is not possible. If the hammer hits the string, an improvement of tone, caused by this punching, is not possible. They are however wrong, in believing that the hammer hits the string first, although it depends on how you strike that key : you can play a note without hitting the bottom, the key frame, so it depends on how you play that key. If you play that key in a, what we call 'normal' way, the key will hit the bottom first followed by the hammer hitting the string. I think that I may say here that it should be clear, after all my contributions to this list, that I am not a bs'er , a fraud, or a fake story teller. These front punchings make all the difference in regard to how a piano feels and sounds and they have actually changed and enriched my concepts of 'the making of tone'. It has however become clear that, in order to get a distinguishable result from these punchings, the instrument has to meet certain conditions and I shall repeat what I wrote about those conditions yesterday : quote: One thing I have learned about this new Wurzen punching, is, that if an instrument has not been regulated the right way, or when an instrument has very loud hammers, you will not hear any difference. You will hear a difference though when the instrument has been regulated the right way, and when the hammers have a more or less 'normal' voicing, i.e. not really too loud, and not really too soft. There is of course a wide scale between very soft and very loud, but then.....  those two are extremes. The influence of the new tapered Wurzen punching is subtle, and can only be heard on an instrument which has been regulated and voiced according to 'normal' professional standards. The feel/touch of the new punching on the other hand, is an other case : 'any' regulation becomes more clear and more defined when you install these punchings. How can it not be the case? It is a more dense material with a very satisfying elasticity which Vladan Temer described so clearly before when he tested several kinds of punchings. That means that a key dip of 10 mm is a key dip of 10 mm. No more, and no less. That in itself makes all the difference. unquote. It also becomes clear that, although I have written about this issue quite a number of times, the principle of why a firmer punching has such an influence is not fully understood by some technicians. For those who do not fully understand this, I will have to repeat myself again (and I apologize for those who know about it already) : Look at the key as if it were a sea saw with two little children on it. Normally speaking, when the sea saw comes down, it bumps into the ground a bit, but, in order to prevent the children from getting hurt, a rubber tyre is put on the ground on both ends to soften the shock. Nevertheless, when it goes a little rough, the child on the high end of the sea saw has to hold the handle tightly, so that it will not fly off when the sea saw hits the ground a little hard. Now we take away the rubber tires... The sea saw will really bang hard into the firm underground, and the bigger shock, caused by it, is transferred immediately to the high end of the sea saw. The child sitting on the high end may get airborne, handle or no handle. This transfer of energy is easy to understand and it proves how the shock of a key hitting firmer 'ground' causes a more 'defined' touch, and a louder, and sometimes clearer, tone. The new Wurzen punching feels more firm than most other punching, but it is not too firm. When we compare it with another punching (for instance under the next key), we notice immediately that the softer punching feels more spongy and that after touch is less precise. The firmer Wurzen punching feels a little more firm, makes it possible to regulate a very precise after touch, and hence causes a stronger transfer of energy because of the more efficient regulation. On top of that, the extra firmness also causes a stronger reaction straight to the hammer and we can instantly hear the difference between the key with the softer punching. Sometimes it even seems a little dull, and most pianists get very excited  and immediately want the new stuff (; >)) I have showed and explained this phenomenon to many people here, and I always let them memorize touch and sound first, before inserting a Wurzen sample under the very same key. I then let them try it out for themselves, so that I am not able to suggest anything to them. In all these cases, the reaction was one of disbelieve and sometimes great surprise, and I always urge them to repeat the procedure over and over again so that they are absolutely convinced that it is not a hoax. So again, if any of you can not tell the difference, it maybe due to : A badly regulated instrument : the malfunctioning action makes it impossible to distinguish any difference. A badly voiced instrument : the too soft or too hard hammers make it impossible to distinguish any difference. A front punching which is just as firm as the Wurzen replacement. Your maybe lost your finest sense of touch and maybe also your finest sense of hearing. I hope the above helps to make why this new punching is a truly great improvement. friendly greetings from André Oorebeek <a href="http://www.concertpianoservice.nl/" eudora="autourl"> www.concertpianoservice.nl</a> "Where music is no harm can be" On 2-apr-05, at 6:59, jason kanter wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> I'd like to hazard a guess about how these punchings are able to affect tone.   Firstly let's admit the logical problem. If you look at the mechanical model, all the motion that contributes to the hammer contacting the string occurs before the key bottoms out on the punching. So, theoretically, it is difficult to account for Andre's claims about this improved tone. We can admit logically that the *feel* of the action may be quite different because of the punching, because the experience of hitting bottom is such a great portion of the artist's experience. OK. But the *tone*? Is this magical thinking? Or may there be a more subtle explanation that satisfies logic?   The truth, I suspect, is in the marvelous nervous structure leading to the artist's fingertips. The regulation of aftertouch is, let's say, 10x more precise with the antares punching than with a too-soft punching. I suspect that the fingers, finding a much more precise bottom, are able to deliver that much more precise a blow. Having played and found this certain bottom, the *fingers* are now much more sure of how much force to use in the attack on the keys. This is what affects the tone. The artist's touch is made more effective by the clean bottom.   Does this idea play? Or am I making a rationalization for magical thinking?   jason </blockquote> On 2-apr-05, at 12:41, Richard Brekne wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You might also add in that fo= r louder levels of play the key actually bottoms out before the hammer hits the string.  The end point condition for key travel then becomes significant in terms of how much energy it absorbs or not. The action has a certain catapult affect here with whatever stored energy in the system wanting release as soon as possible.  I wont get into whether any of that can or cant be released in time as that discussion has been backed and forthed a few times already. But I will sign under that the effect is obvious from the standpoint of what the fingers feel and ears percieve when changing the type of punchings.  Also, as Andre pointed out. A well regulated instrument is necessary to get this far in the first place. An action that is not well regulated disperses much of the energy around in various forms of waste to begin with yes... ? Cheers RicB Hi Jason. I agree with your thoughts about the importance on the sound of the = pianist's feel at the fingertips. But there is another thing that is easy to experiment : the influence of = the thump of the key landing on the keyframe on the final sound of the = note being played.  More than that, not only the sound of the very thump = here mentionned, but also the way this impulsion feeds back to all the = strings via the keybed, the rim, the soundboard and the bridge, and = gives extra energy to the vibration of the string and the whole acoustic = machine, and mixes up with the thump of the hammer and hammer shank at = hammer-string contact time.  You can easily isolate that thump by = removing a hammer from the hammer rail and playing the corresponding = note (with the action in the piano) : the key knocking sound you hear = (emphasized very much if you depress the demper pedal) is really part of = the overall sound.  Now, change the punching, the sound will change = accordingly.  What is magic is how the final acoustic result of some = blends of impulsions make you feel good, while other (only slightly = different) blends, not so. What I found great at Andr=E9's punchings is that they have exactly the = = right firmness : harder ones tend to make a disagreable thump (tac tac = tac) in the trebble, and softer ones won't give you the nice end of dip = feeling (and regulation), and will absorb more of the energy of the key = thump. Best regards. St=E9phane Collin. _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </blockquote> </blockquote></x-html> </blockquote></body> </html>