<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>   Delwin D Fandrich wrot <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  No, Richard. You show us, you refer us to, you quote, you--in any other sense--document any study, anywhere, from any source, that scientifically demonstrats that there ARE significant changes in the way sound and wood inter-relate as a result of wood aging, or varnishing for that matter. When you can do this you will lend some credibility to the claims that this relationship exists. Until you, or others making these claims, can do this you will reside in exactly the same place as those who declare other unsubstantiated ideas to be fact.</blockquote> That last sentence is precisely my point Del... and exactly where I find you in this matter. No Del... I am not the one declaring that we have an answer to this question...one way or the  other... quite the opposite I am the one who says we don't know. And you are mistaken when you draw the conclusion that I believe that age does have an effect. What my position is, as I have stated at least 5 times now is that this is not something that is known. You are the one with the position,  and the burden of proof is upon you. Just as much as is it upon those who declare the aging is indeed a factor. Same thing really applies to the varnish issue in violins. And really Del, I don't need to be a piano designer to recognize these issues are debated by significant numbers of folks sporting all kinds of neat titles. If  there was a conclusive proof one way or the other...this simply wouldn't be the case. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  No offence, Richard, but really, if you want to add any credibility to these claims you need to come with some kind of proof--or at least some credible theory to explain them--or find some evidence to substantiate them or you need to stop blowing your magic smoke.</blockquote> Its not me whose blowing smoke Del. I have claimed nothing more then that this is an unknown. So again... you who make a claim must show the proof. This would be the case whether the position represented is the one you take or the one taken by the magic varnish side. All I hear on the issue of aging is a lot of claims on both sides, and thetas what I have reacted against and that's all I have said anything about. So I would appreciate it if you would cease and desist with the attachment of meanings or words to me that I do not stand for, nor have never stated. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  > And for the last time... nobody is comparing Violins directly to pianos... the > Violin examples are used in conjunction with wood ageing... not with differing > stress situations. Until you prove that ageing of wood per se has no > significance... then it will continue to be natural to use such examples. Sure seemed like it to me. Until you can prove that the aging of wood per se has any significance in the performance of the piano soundboard I will continue to reject such comparisons.</blockquote> That, my esteemed piano designer... is because you have not bothered reading what I really have been saying. And for the umpteenth millionth time dear Del... I have never said that aging of wood DOES effect the performance of sound boards significantly. What I HAVE said is that if you are going to deny that it does...especially when you label such beliefs as superstitious nonsense, then you have to be able to prove your standpoint. Until you do then your standpoint is in the end just as believable as the magic juice story, or any of the rest.   <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  > Science is science... treat it that way. As you say, science is science. Treat it that way.</blockquote> exactly... prove what you hypothesize, or recognize it for the hypothesis it is. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  Regards, Del</blockquote> As far as the books you recommend.. Benade, at least I have... and I dont recall ever seeing the issue of wood ageing relating to sounding boards dealt with in that book...... tho I will take another look tommorrow. But you who obviously assume I am so unread might want to check out the following tittles... for some other perspectives. Buchanan, G. 1990 Making Stringed Instruments Abbot, J. 1987 Cited in, Bucur, V. 1995. The Acoustics of Wood. Boyden, D.D. 1961. The Violin, in, Baines. A. 1961. Musical Instruments through the Ages.   Bucur, I might add cites the following  factors relative to changes in wood as it ages Chemical and physical changes over time with fluctuations of temperature and humidity and effects due to the playing process,  mainly the results of vibrations and static loading.   -- Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. Bergen, Norway <A HREF="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</A>  </html>