<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>My first apprenticeship, in fall 1970 in San Francisco, working = for Dana Huff, proprietor of the Tip-Top Piano Shop on Valencia Street ... once = he was satisfied with my tuning, Dana would send me out to do some of the = tunings that came to him ... "Charge them $17.50 and give me $5" = ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jason kanter</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:02 = PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Re: working with ETD's = versus..... no more really... </DIV>Fascinating post = Andre.... It might interest you to know that when I got of WIT in 1974 and went home to = Minot, North Dakota.   I was charging the highest fee of $20 a = tuning amongst my competition.   David Ilvedson <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> <HR> Original message From: antares <ANTARES@EURONET.NL> To: = Pianotech <PIANOTECH@PTG.ORG> Received: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:43:25 = +0100 Subject: Re: working with ETD's versus..... no more really... On 6-feb-05, at 3:54, David Andersen = wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>If one insists that an aural tuning is better, so be it, = I prefer to say that some aural tuners, probably like David = Andersen, are really fantastic tuners, but that it takes a whole lot of = energy and stress to produce 5 of those tunings a day. Working with a = near perfect ETD is far less stressful and costs far less energy. = Again, the unisons are, in my opinion, more important, and so is the voicing. See, I choose for an economical use of my time = with a maximum result. friendly greetings from ANDRÉ OOREBEEK </BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely. Agree 100%. If I was = tuning 5 pianos a day, I would definitely look at the Verituner. By the = grace of God, I don't have to do that these days; just 2 or at the most 3 = pianos a day, with other interesting work thrown in. </BLOCKQUOTE> Alright, I 've been thinking about = dizz..... I don't think that there is an ongoing war between ETD'ers and = Aural'ers. The time has past and is gone, where older aural tuners scorned = technicians with sophisticated equipment. I think I am right when I say that we -mostly- all agree that only the very best ETD's can easily = match the very best tunings made by aural tuners. If one does not and can = not agree with this, then I consider this otherwise highly interesting and = informative discussion one sided and invalid. I do not that think - I - would = spend more time on this issue, because 1. all my critical customers are = extremely satisfied with my ETD tuning and 2. for me personally it is out = of the question to start all over again with aural tuning, especially so = because I have had it and I have done that for the greater part of my = professional life. Again, I wish to bring forward here, that I would insist = that any tuning student should learn to tune aurally and then tune at least 10 = 000 pianos without even looking at an ETD. If that tuner then = chooses to keep on tuning aurally, or chooses to buy an ETD..... fine, does it = matter? are we at least trying a create a free society, or = what? Which brings me to the fact that you David (Andersen) have the choice of = tuning no more than 2 or at the most 3 pianos. I think it could be = enlightening to some here, that there is something else in play here : There are = some huge differences between the USA and at least the Netherlands (and other = European countries). What differences am I talking about? 1. there is = the fact that the tuners/technicians here in Holland are divided in two = groups : Those who are self employed, and those who work for a piano store. Most of the tuners/technicians work for a piano store and = have a regular income with obligatory health insurance and reasonable pension = plans. Their income can never be fantastic because their employer = needs to make money too. Way in the past, like in the 19th and first halve = of the 20th century, those employed in a piano store, were living in = Dickensian conditions. They were forced to work 6 days a week, had maybe just a = few days a year vacation (or never), made very long days and were forced to = tune at the least 7 pianos every day (outside the store). We know those stories. That changed in the second halve of the 20th century, = after WW-II. Socialistic ideas were very strong then and one began to = form unions. This happened all over the World, except in fascist countries = in general, or in places where people were (and still are) brutalized and = forced to stay poor for ever (like in some African countries where greed and = the most stupefying selfishness prevails in the upper warrior = clans). The profession of the Dutch piano tuners was placed under the wings of the = "Metal Union" and every year, a small delegation of representatives was sent = to the Hague, the political centre in Holland, to negotiate improving = conditions for their piano tuner/technician members. When I entered the 'market' = in the early seventies, I began to work for a big piano store in Amsterdam, = and, immediately was told to start training hard because it was customary = (still) that the tuners did 7 tunings a day (I have told this here before, but = repeat i to illustrate the working conditions here). At the same time, = tuning a piano then cost about 15,00 US $ ! in the early = seventies! Tuning a piano was considered a low tech kind of work, and if one said that his = (female tuners did not yet exist then) daily work consisted of tuning pianos, = most people would start to laugh or giggle. They considered it a funny = profession, haha. No wonder wages were very low, and conditions in general = were so so for the piano tuners. No wonder too, that at a certain moment, = more and more tuners left their erstwhile employers, and started a business for = themselves. Those, who took that step, did not have an easy time = either. Health insurance and pension plans were, and are, very expensive, and, = above all, the Dutch Government always has squeezed every single soul to the = innermost bones, to get to the last excess marrow. sob = sob... With this background in mind, it is perhaps more easy to understand that = the price development (in general) has taken only a very slow rise over the last = 6 decades. Only 5 years ago, tuning a piano cost something like US $ = 55,- to 60,- The introduction of the Euro has put the cost of living on its = head. All prices jumped with at least 30 to 50 % and in some cases, the = European currency in general, just doubled, just like that. (don't ask me why = and how). This price may seem not so bad compared to you = Americans Most piano stores now ask around 75 to 80 US $ (This price may seem not so = bad compared to you Americans, but the comparison between the US and = European currency has lost its reality, due to the inevitable slow sinking away = of the US dollar, thanks to your President), but it is actually still too = low, because the costs of a car are included and the cost of living has = almost doubled here. The heritage of tuning so many piano's per day, has = come to around 30 piano's a week, through the influence of the Piano union. = That means that every piano tuner who is not self employed has to tune 6 pianos a = day, like it or not. Wages are still so so, but the obligatory health = and pension plan is ok. Those who are self employed, aim for at least 5 = pianos a day, because their costs are high (car, pension, health plan, taxes) = but at least their wages are not skimmed of by a so called boss, = hrmpf. They make more hours, sometimes 10 to 12 hours a day, including driving, calling = customers, and administration, but they have one huge advantage over = the employed ones : they are free, and if they choose to go to Antarctica tomorrow, they can do that. Maybe this long explanation of = the Dutch piano tuner in general, will make you understand that 1. = Dutch tuners were always forced to tune an awful lot of pianos a day (myself = included), 2. always tried to make an extra buck for themselves = either in the evening or in weekends, 3. Were, and are, therefor prone to = early wear and tear of their bodies, 4. Are for those above reasons, more than = ready to make a new start with a nice and relaxing ETD. I am = certainly not in the lowest ranks of the tuner world here. I charge my customers 70 = Euros which is 90 US Dollars. However, I am able to tune any more pianos than 2 = a day otherwise my poor left hand will hurt more. So I try to earn my = living mostly with technical work, like regulating and voicing. That is all = very nice, but the level of my clientele is not of the same level you may = have in the chintzy parts of LA. I know LA pretty well, you can definitely not = compare it with Amsterdam, or Holland for that matter. There is a lot of = wealth there and incredible amount of incredibly rich people. There is no Bel = Air, Hollywood, or Beverly Hills here. It is so different = David. I hope that anybody, reading this, understands better my arguments why, I in = the first place, and many others here, were more than ready for a sleek = machine. Too much repetitive work, too many chinese equal temperament puzzles = every day till your 65th birthday. It is killing. I consider myself lucky, to = be able my beautiful work, so I am not complaining. It is just that we = have a completely different background. Sometimes it is interesting and = also enlightening to better understand how other live, especially on this = list, which counts a number of techs who are living in other places in the World. <BLOCKQUOTE>And maybe I just THINK I do fantastic tunings; it could be = all in my head; perhaps I'm just a big blowhard who's got everybody fooled. </BLOCKQUOTE> I hope to find out someday soon?, and I = am looking forward to that moment. I have already been able to check on the = skills of my friend Ricardo in wet and freezing Norway. Let me tell y'all = that he too is one of the best I so far have encountered. Keep that in mind = when he pokes around this list, hehehehe... <BLOCKQUOTE>My affection and respect to you, Master = Oorebeek. David A. </BLOCKQUOTE> Likewise, and may da foice be witha ya = *(; > O <:)* <?fontfamily><?param Osaka><?color><?param = 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger>friendly = greetings from ANDR<?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfam= ily><?param Monaco><?color><?param 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger>É = OOREBEEK <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?par= am Osaka><?color><?param FFFF,6F6F,CFCF>Where 'music' is no harm can be<?/color><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param = Monaco><?color><?param = 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily>= <?fontfamily><?param Osaka><?color><?param = 6666,6666,FFFF><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?x-tad-bigger= >www.concertpianoservice.nl<?/x-tad-bigger><?color><?param = 3333,3333,3333><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?color><?para= m = FFFF,6666,6666><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?color><?= param = 3333,3333,3333><?x-tad-bigger> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/color><?x-tad-bigger= > <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HT= ML>