<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=windows-1252"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>    Bill, there are a = lot of variables involved in how stable a piano might be after a pitch raise = and fine tuning.  The major one in my mind is how far out was it to begin with.  The worst I've seen was 3 semitones flat.  After tuning = one note, the next one up in chromatic sequence (untuned) was in perfect = harmony a third below the one I'd just tuned!!  WOW.  I'm sure this = piano would be drifting flat within 2 weeks even after a pitch raise and tune.  = That brings up another point.  How many technicians raise pitch in = increments in this case?  I find no reason not to yank each string over pitch by = 1/3 of the flatness no matter how flat it is.  String breakage does not = seem to be a problem, and 40-50 cents over is not unusual.  However in talking = to those in our Syracuse chapter leaving the piano below pitch, or raising = in 10-20 cent steps until the proper pitch is reached it most common.  Any comments?     Mike Kurta  PNO2NER</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pianowrmonroe@hotmail.com href="mailto:pianowrmonroe@hotmail.com">William R. Monroe</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 17, 2002 = 3:16 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Charging for Pitch = Raises</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Mike and List,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If one properly pitch raises an instrument, and finishes with a = solid fine tuning, is there validity saying that the instrument will not = hold this tuning as well as if it were tuned regularly?  I was under the = impression that in this scenario, the instrument would hold tune well, perhaps = only slightly less well than a regularly serviced instrument on which PR = are not needed or performed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mkurta@adelphia.net = href="mailto:mkurta@adelphia.net">Mike Kurta</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 17, = 2002 5:59 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Charging for = Pitch Raises</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>    I never charge = for a pitch raise, however I don't discount if one isn't needed either.  I = used to charge for mileage too,  but don't any more.  One price = for all is my rule now.  I might be a bit higher than the norm for this = area, but I find it all averages out in the end.  I like = consistency.  If a pitch raise is needed, I explain to the customer what I'm doing, and = that the finished tuning will be up to pitch and sound great, but it = won't stay in tune quite as long this first time.  (Assuming its been 3-5 = years since the last tuning, which is often the case).  I then = encourage them to begin an annual tuning schedule which after 2-3 years will bring = their piano back to a stable situation.  I prefer using this method = rather than either (1) raising the pitch in increments, thus leaving the = piano at less than A440, or (2) recommending another tuning be done in 1-3 = months, and again raising pitch in steps.  Not every owner follows = this recommendation, but I hesitate to appear as though I'm pushing more = tunings as well as leaving the piano out of tune.  If I do return in a = year, usually follow-up pitch raises are not necessary, and I feel the = slight additional charge for all tunings covers the occasional pitch raises = that are needed.    Mike Kurta</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dnereson@dimensional.com href="mailto:dnereson@dimensional.com">Dave Nereson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 17, = 2002 6:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Charging for = Pitch Raises</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pianowrmonroe@hotmail.com href="mailto:pianowrmonroe@hotmail.com">William R. Monroe</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 16, = 2002 6:26 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Charging for = Pitch Raises</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I was reading an old essay (PTJ August '90) by Rick = Baldassin regarding Piano Tuning Stability.  Within that = article, Rick writes about tuning for a concert and remarks that after a = rehearsal, the treble was really out.  'Why?  The treble notes = were too far out of tune to create a stable tuning in one pass on the tuning.'  He stated that when he tuned the instrument prior = to the rehearsal, the 6th and 7th octaves were flat, 'maybe as much as = four cents.'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, in a nutshell, if your piano is four cents flat, your = tuning will not be stable (for a concert level tuning).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My questions:</DIV> <DIV> 1.) Really?  Is four cents flat too much to get = a stable concert tuning?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) For our regular clients, when do we begin charging for = a pitch raise, 5 cents, 10 cents, 20 cents?  I realize that neither = all clients, nor their instruments will require this level tuning, = but where do we draw the line and say we must raise pitch to get a stable tuning?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am very interested to hear as many opinions on this one = as possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>William R. Monroe<BR>PTG Associate<BR>Salt Lake City, = UT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    Yes, 4 cents flat is probably too flat = to get a stable concert tuning in one pass.  Back when people = referred to beats per second (at A 49) more often than cents, someone at a = seminar said that anything more than 2 beats per second flat would = require a pitch raise to be stable in one pass.  I find (in the home, = not concert tunings) that that's about right most of the time.  = </DIV> <DIV>    For clients, whether regular or not, I = suppose you should charge extra for any tuning that requires more passes = to stabilize than one on a piano that's already at pitch.  I don't think I've ever done a = "one-pass tuning".  It's always once through to do the initial = tuning, then another time through to re-tune the ones that slipped, then = I take out the ear plugs and go through again for a final = touch-up.  The second two "passes" are very quick and are considered part of = the tuning.   </DIV> <DIV>    If I had even a nickel for every free = pitch raise I've done, I could probably buy a new couch or = something.  Sometimes I just don't want to go drag the customer away from = what they're doing to tell them there's going to be an extra = charge.  Sometimes I charge and sometimes I don't -- I know, that's = inconsistent, but since the pitch raise takes only 10 or 15 minutes, I usually = just quickly bang it out rather than go get them to give 'em the = lecture about tension, humidity, dryness, string stretching, tuning = every 6 months, etc.  Even if I do, it doesn't do any good.  = They still wait 2 to10 years before they get it tuned again, even if = I leave literature about it.  I've almost given up on explaining = about and charging for pitch raises.  Almost all pianos I tune need = one, except those that get tuned every year (schools, piano = teachers), and even some of those need a "quickie raise or lower" in the = middle, depending what season it was when they were last tuned.  = </DIV> <DIV>      I dunno, for me it's = easier to have the charge for a pitch raise figured in to the "regular" = base fee, and if it doesn't need a p.r., give them a $10 or $15 = discount.      --David Nereson, RPT, = Denver</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></= HTML>