<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> I aggree with what both are saying here.... in essence anyways... Point is we often end up arguing about this issue while actually being in aggreement without stressing the points of aggreement..indeed often enough without really being aware of it. Point is that ETD's  DO represent a big threat to learning how to tune, at the SAME time they represent a tremendous asset in that same effort. It all depends on how they are used and this is the central issue we should all be concerned with. Getting out that message is really all we need to do. Use ETD's.... I encourage one and all to explore this world..but really explore it. Use these tools conciously to find out more about what you do as a tuner. When I pick out my ETD, its when I decide to use an extra half hour or so.. to check out things a bit while tuning. Slopp tunings I can do faster without anyways and I can handle a bit of noise around me. BobDavis88@AOL.COM wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>cgregg@cadvision.com writes: > An aural tuner does not >  realize what a crutch the ETD is to a newcomer. That is not the fault of the ETD....  It may get them tuning, >  but it does not teach them how to tune aurally. Of course it doesn't, by itself. It is an unbeatable source of feedback to monitor and speed aural progress, and its PROJECTED acceptable tunings can be used as a target while the student is learning how to use its measurement capabilities to EXCEED (aurally) the calculated tuning. If the student doesn't wish to use it to check unison stability, explore various octave widths, find out how even his temperament octave is, etc., because he fears dependence, he either misunderstands the ETD's capabilities, or should wonder if he has the discipline for eventual self-employment. Bob Davis</blockquote> -- Richard Brekne Associate PTG, N.P.T.F. Bergen, Norway  </html>