<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial" bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7><FONT id=rol= e_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Susan,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Excellent post!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the grand scheme of all things tuning, what really matters:  wh= at looks good on paper, what appears correct on the screen of an ETD, or w= hat sounds good to your--and your clients'--ears?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dave Stahl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a message dated 1/10/2006 8:21:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, hgreeley@stanford.edu writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Susan,<BR><BR>Very well said!<BR><BR>Thank you very much.<BR><BR>Horace<BR><BR>At 08:07 PM 1/10/2006, you wrote:<BR>>Dear Ed,<BR>><BR>>Most graciously written, though my ego was not pricked = by what you <BR>>were saying --<BR>>well, not much ...<BR>><BR>>I= find it encouraging that several of the people writing most <BR>>earnes= tly about this supposedly crucial inaccuracy had the direction <BR>>of it w= rong ... good for Bob Davis!<BR>><BR>>Tuning a couple of not-so-hot piano= s since we had this discussion, I <BR>>tried the A4 after I finished my u= sual procedure -- it seemed <BR>>beatless with the fork. So, wondering how I= ended up awfully close <BR>>to where I should be by the "wrong" method,= I started thinking about it.<BR>><BR>>I don't set the A4 from F3 and t= he A-440 fork. I set A3, using the <BR>>fork and F3. Once A3 is beatless t= o the A440 fork, and F3 is a <BR>>reasonable beat rate from A3, I tune F4= to a pleasing octave (well, <BR>>pleasing to me ...), and then fiddle with= C#4 till the contiguous <BR>>major thirds proceed pleasantly, changing the = F's if needed. Then I <BR>>lay the rest of the temperament -- if all goes a= s I expect it to (I <BR>>have been doing it this way for 28 years, after al= l ...) the G# at <BR>>the end of the sequence will be happy with the C# f= rom the beginning <BR>>of it, and I move on to octaves, after running fifth= s and fourths to <BR>>see that they are equally happy or unhappy, dependi= ng on the <BR>>instrument. I march upward, treating A4 just like all the o= ther <BR>>notes ----------- and there may lie the saving grace. I make all t= he <BR>>octaves just slightly wide of what your machines might consider de= ad <BR>>straight perfect. And this stretch may be just the amount needed t= o <BR>>get the A4 fundamental beatless against the fork.<BR>><BR>>I= do them this way because I like the sound better. It's less <BR>>stretch t= han would yield a noticeable beat, short of holding, <BR>>waiting ... waiti= ng .... waiting ....................... etc.<BR>><BR>>So, if when I che= ck the A4 against the fork it is okay ------what is <BR>>all this worry ab= out? I mean, the world really doesn't need any more <BR>>slipshod piano tune= rs than it already has, but is it slipshod if my <BR>>ear, listening to th= e note and the fork together over several <BR>>seconds, can't tell the difference? What earthly harm is that small <BR>>a discrepancy (if even= worth mentioning) going to do to anyone?<BR>><BR>>There are so many undesirable aspects of pianos which are plainly <BR>>audible to an unai= ded ear, and which often just go by the wayside -- <BR>>why not pay more attention to them, and not worry about the <BR>>"Nano-Issues"? I don't really see the point of spending so much time <BR>>dissecting gnats.<BR>><BR>>On the other hand, I (sometimes) am happy that peopl= e with minds put <BR>>together somewhat differently than mine enjoy takin= g unreasonably <BR>>exact technical devices, and working out _exactly_ wh= ere the gnats <BR>>like to hang out. It's nice, on general principles, to k= now these <BR>>locations, and have a grounding in general gnat-anatomy, tho= ugh I <BR>>will always depend on my ear instead -- so it ends up as kind of= an <BR>>academic pursuit. Never mind, we all have our roles in life ... we= <BR>>all make our various contributions.<BR>><BR>>Regards,<BR>>Susan Kline (oh, yes, RPT, a= nd I tuned A4 on the test using F2 ...)<BR>><BR>>At 10:32 AM 1/9/2006 -05= 00, you wrote:<BR>>>Dear List:<BR>>><BR>>>I see that my most= offensive comment was that anyone who tunes A4 <BR>>>to F3 does not = know how to tune a piano.<BR>>>That was not a correct statement.  I = see that there are <BR>>>circumstances in which a person using this meth= od may produce a <BR>>>very good tuning for that circumstance.<BR>>><BR>>>Since this list is provided by the Gu= ild, I assume that all folks <BR>>>here intend to become RPTs, so that wh= en we talk about tuning we <BR>>>are referring to the Guild Exam as a minimum standard.<BR>>><BR>>>I had to work very hard to pass t= hat exam.  Becoming an RPT was the <BR>>>most significant confidenc= e building act of my life.  I hope for <BR>>>others to have simil= ar life building experiences, and so I express <BR>>>an understanding o= f piano technology based on the values implicit <BR>>>in the RPT exams.<BR>>><BR>>>My intention was to help a new learner focus= on those facts and <BR>>>actions which would most advance and accelerat= e his long term <BR>>>growth.  If anyone feels personally demeane= d by my statement, I <BR>>>think you have probably misunderstood my inten= t, but I can <BR>>>understand that, and hope you will accept my apology.<BR>>><BR>>>Sincerely,<BR>>>Ed Sutton<BR>>><BR>>>"If there is anyone here I have failed to in= sult tonight, I hope <BR>>>you will accept my sincere apology."<BR>>>Johannes Brahms<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"= >Dave Stahl<BR><BR>Dave Stahl Piano Service<BR>650-224-3560<U><BR><A href="http://www.dstahlpiano.net/">http://dstahlpiano.net/</A></U></FONT><= /DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>