<HTML>In a message dated 11/16/00 7:03:38 PM Central Standard Time, remoody@midstatesd.net (Richard Moody) writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If temperament is so important to the music why can't it be recognized without resorting to electronic devices?   Or, if no one can tell by listening, what difference does it make what temp is used?   ric "I am NOT a skeptic" </XMP> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry I haven't been able to participate with this discussion until now but I'd have to say that Ed has given some very good answers.  I have seen this argument before by a guy who claimed he "knew all about those HT's" (been there, done that) and in his vast experience had only known of two artists who could recognize a particular temperament when music was played.  His inference was that no other temperament was worth doing because no one could "tell the difference" while at the same time he was admonishing against doing anything at all other than ET because of what would happen if someone actually did recognize the difference. It doesn't at all seem unusual that people would say that they can't recognize the differences in temperaments when they have had no experience with them and have little or no understanding about what the effects are supposed to be.  It's not much different from people saying that they don't know the difference whether a piano is in tune or not.  There has to be a point at which virtually anyone would say that the piano is out of tune.   There has to be a point at which virtually any musician would recognize the differences that a choice of temperament can make. Ask yourself why there are any refinements being made in piano preparation at all.  Who can "tell" if there are fine points made in regulation or voicing?   Does making these refinements depend on whether someone will notice or not?   How about octave stretching?  Do we make choices only if we think someone will notice?  If no one says anything about a refinement that has been made, is that a reason to say that it is not worth doing? Sometimes, the goal in temperament may actually be to keep the distinctions below the threshold of what most people can distinguish.  That is the way my EBVT is designed.  Indeed, most often, other technicians will say when questioned about it, "It sounds great but I honestly can't tell the difference from ET".  It takes a direct comparison to be able to distinguish the difference and even then, the difference is recognized as being a slight and subtle refinement such as the perception of enhanced clarity or being a little more "in tune" sounding. To be honest, I have had the same experiences and do not claim to be able to recognize and particular temperament when music is being played.  I can, however, recognize 1/7 Comma Meantone when certain contexts are played that reveal the highly energized sound of the wolf key.  I think I would recognize 1/4 Comma Meantone if I heard it.  I also can and do recognize the sound of my own EBVT when I hear it but that is because I know exactly what it is supposed to sound like in all contexts. Lastly, I would have to say that as a result of doing lots of listening, I can recognize the sound of Reverse Well when I hear it and I hear it much too often.  I remember in particular taking a guest from France to see a production of "A Christmas Carol" last year and hearing Christmas Carols such as "Silent Night" being played in the key of C and having completely the wrong effect.  This was much like Ed's example he gave about transposing a piece from Bach's WT Clavier music.  Imagine a piano tuned in Vallotti-Young, for example and playing "Silent Night" in the key of C#.  It would be enough to make you wince with discomfort as to the inappropriateness.  But if people are routinely presented with an inappropriate sound, is it not easy to understand why most people have learned to "tune out" that sound and just accept whatever misguided, out of focus, random harmony that is offered as being normal? Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin</HTML>