<html> <body> Those of us who use stone-age ETDs that don't calculate stretch for you, deal with this inharmonicity issue all of the time.  I have been using a Peterson 490 ST with built in stretch tables that are labeled "Spinet" through [concert] "Grand".  Off-course none actually fit the piano in front of you (although a couple of Yamahas were close to the 'idealized' tables).  I stretch aurally as I go, augmenting the decimal cents offset on the ETD from the temperament octave.  It does expose your cognizance to things that you wouldn't necessarily deal with if you were tuning by strictly aural methods.  Like scaling breaks in between the tenor/bass break (about 4 cents on a Yamaha C7 I tune) and sometimes in the treble too.  On the Peterson strobe you can also see the partials as they relate to the next octave.  This can help on nasty little spinets where you are trying to average between a beating fundamental and beating octaves. I've encountered console pianos that stretch like what my ETD calls a "Small Grand". They do sound much better then their compatriots which have more inharmonicity or, perhaps, poorly targeted inharmonicity.  This is probably a discussion that would be better expanded by someone who specializes in developing/calculating string scales.  I've also noticed on pitch raises, more so on extreme ones, that when you pull a note up to a target pitch and harmonize its unisons there will be lots of beats.  When you complete the pitch raise pass throughout the piano those beats go away as the intervals and partials of other notes (even though they are damped) are returned to a harmonized relationship.   How much those partials clash will depend on how strong they are and how far off of the interval they are when the fundamentals are in the desired position.  Occasionally I encounter individual strings that when the fundamental is on pitch the other octaves are spinning wildly.  It is a funny sounding string too, that is it sounds different from the other unisons.  Perhaps it had a kink put in the speaking length when it was strung or is just plain the wrong gauge; I should get my wire gage out next time I observe that. This may, in part, be a problem I have with my mother-in-law's DH Baldwin 6' grand.  When it is in tune it positively rings, distractingly so for me.  I suspect that there are problems at the bridge with loose pins.  There are many false beats in the treble, I'll be looking into that with thin CA glue and a syringe this summer after the air-conditioners have been running for a while.  Perhaps the dampers could use some 'voicing'?  I've debated stretching it more aggressively to reduce this but want to eliminate other causes first. Andrew Anderson <a href="http://www.andersonmusic.com/" eudora="autourl">www.andersonmusic.com</a> Las Cruces, NM At 09:58 PM 1/14/2004 +0200, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>He means that in the 2nd case the overtones start developing on loud playing, while in the 3rd case they are being produced in abundance even at normal playing and cause distortions at loud playing. I don't know if louder playing changes the inharmonicity of a string in any way, and Fenner doesn't say anything about this. My guess: it's just the fact that you hear more partials with loud playing. I have never tried analysing the harmonic spectrum of a piano's note and comparing it to other brands in terms of inharmonicity and volume of the different partials - if anybody here did, please share your findings with us. I assume that much of the tonal character of an instrument is given by the amplitudes of the different partials in relation to eachother and to the fundamental. I wonder if the reason I like the Bechstein sound so much is connected to inharmonicity or to the mix of partials or maybe both. What I can say for myself (about old Bechsteins though) is that they tend to have a very rich and brilliant sound even at moderate volume levels.    Calin Tantareanu ----------------------------------------------------  <a href="http://calintantareanu.tripod.com">http://calintantareanu.tripod.com</a> ----------------------------------------------------   <dl> <dd>----- Original Message ----- <dd>From: <a href="mailto:741662027@charter.net">Cy Shuster</a> <dd>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</a> <dd>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 9:29 PM <dd>Subject: Re: Piano stringing scales <dd>Why is it that louder playing results in "overtones higher than acceptable" in one case, but "gives colour" in another case?  <dd>  <dd>What's the mechanism here?  Does he imply that louder notes have more inharmonicity, or is it just that you can't hear as many partials on softer notes? <dd>  <dd>--Cy Shuster-- <dd>Rochester, MN <dd>----- Original Message ----- <dd>From: <a href="mailto:dnu@fx.ro">Calin Tantareanu</a> <dd>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> <dd>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 12:36 PM <dd>Subject: Re: Piano stringing scales <dd>  <dd>2. Scales with inharmonicity values higher then average or close to the upper "limit" <dd>With increasing dynamics the adding up of overtones gives the sound colour, without getting unpleasant. <dd>Examples: Grotrian-Steinweg, Yamaha, Steinway <dd>  <dd>3. Inharmonicity is at the "limit" or above <dd>At normal playing volume, the tonal character makes an outstanding impression. But with increasing dynamics, the stretching of the overtones gets higher than acceptable to the ear and becomes distorted. This happens especially when the string termination isn't perfect. Because one needs to voice the piano mellow to avoid distortion, powerful fortissimos aren't possible. <dd>Examples: Fenner states that such a scale can be found, nowadays, only in Bechstein pianos. <dd>  </dl></blockquote></body> </html>