<HTML><HEAD> <META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charse= t=utf-8"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2730.1700" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff= f"> <DIV>In a message dated 1/2/2004 8:41:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, pianobuil= ders@olynet.com writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue = 2px solid"> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN= -LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>F= rom:</B> <A title=mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com href="mailto:Erwinspiano@ao= l.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:pianotech@ptg.o= rg href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> December 31, 2003 5:56 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: No downbearing ?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040 size=3><STRONG> &= nbsp;    Jean</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040 size=3><STRONG>  = I agree with the rest of these posts.  Look at all the old American upr= ights you want, but you'll only find a few with soundboards that were design= ed to have a crown and hence downbearing & Many of them sound very nice.= In my mind the upright soundboard is more of a mass driven system. I.e. lon= g strings and big soundboards. These boards are tapered, thicker a= t the top in the treble & gradually thin down to about 1/4" near the bas= s/ bottom end for flexibility. </STRONG></FONT><FONT face="Times New = Roman" color=#000040 size=3><STRONG>   </STRONG></FONT></= DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3></FONT> </DI= V></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>Dale,</= FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3></FONT>=  </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>I suppo= se you have to define what is meant by "designed to have crown...." </FONT><= /DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040 size=4>>>Its tru= e I could have said it doesn't appear that much crowning was a&nbs= p;designed feature. I do beleive they were expecting compression but it does= n't seem to coincide with the amounts of compresion and set we find in grand= boards of the same era.Ie Mason Boards. It's fairly obvious to me that thes= e boys were aiming at very low emcs. I find more compression cracks in this = piano than most steinways.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue = 2px solid"> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>At leas= t until the transition from hot animal hide glue to "modern" synthetic = adhesives (for this industry this took place between roughly the mid-20s to = the mid-30s) all pianos, grand or vertical, had at least some amount of comp= ression-crowning. This is regardless of what curve may or may not have been = machined into the ribs. Of manufacturing necessity the soundboard panels&nbs= p;were heated to approximately 120º F for several hours before ribbing. It= was long enough to thoroughly heat the panels and dry them to some very low= moisture content -- and, hence, shrink them -- prior to ribbing. By definit= ion this is compression-crowning.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040>  <FONT size=3><S= TRONG>>> I have no doubts</STRONG></FONT> <STRONG><FONT size=3>that = there was some sort drying prior to ribbing but with the uprights a mer= e few hours of heating isn't really going to take a soundboard panel to= an adequately low emc level for compression crowning. None of us would expe= ct that result in our own shops. </FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040><STRONG><FONT size=3>&= nbsp;  I suspect any amount of crown achieved was mostly dependent= on circumstance I.E. it was a cold dry time of year & the pre ribb= ed boards were already at low emcs. </FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue = 2px solid"> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3></FONT>=  </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>Beyond = this, Wolfenden (at least) was using a combination of rib- and compression-c= rowning as a standard practice when he wrote the first edition of his book (= 1914 wasn't it?). He made no mention of his practice being in any way exclus= ive. Indeed, the impression one gets is that it was rather common among= the pianomakers of his day.</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>>&gt= ;.. I wonder what piano he was building. If rib crowning was common  I = must say I've seen precious little it on many.(Knabe) I should think it= should be easy to spot. With  Upright being so long the= taper of rib cut with crown should be apparent. Do you know what i mea= n?</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>I think= you have to look at other design factors that are different between the ove= rall vertical and grand piano design practice to explain what you are findin= g. (Incidentally, my experience does not parallel yours. Of those I've = evaluated, verticals seem to have about the same residual crown, or lack the= reof, as grands of the same vintage and life experience. Most have little or= none with the occasional happy exception.) </FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000" face="Comic Sans = MS" color=#ff8000 size=3>....>>>>Though I believe that these= pianos would benefit tonally  from crown & bearing nevertheless&nb= sp;many of these pianos (at least in my climate) do work quite wel= l with new strings& hammers, etc., & some bearing, provided tha= t the board isn't seriously or irreparably deteriorated.</FONT></DIV></BLOCK= QUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue = 2px solid"> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>A coupl= e of things you might want to consider are the generally lower quality = of wood used in vertical soundboards Vs that used in grands and the <U>overa= ll length of the ribs.</U></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040 size=4>>>>&gt= ;This is a possibility</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue = 2px solid"> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>Another= factor might be the variability of the microclimate surrounding the instrum= ents. How many verticals over the past century have spent a winter and summe= r or two backed up against an uninsulated outside wall?</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3></FONT>=  </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=3>Del</FO= NT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000040></FONT></DIV></BODY></HT= ML>