<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD><TITLE>Re: How we = hear to Jeneetah</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content=Word.Document name=ProgId> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR> <META content="Microsoft Word 10" name=Originator><LINK href="cid:filelist.xml@01C4BC13.A00B4470" = rel=File-List><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagT= ype> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: Verdana; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; = mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer-margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } P { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman"; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; = mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply; = mso-style-noshow: yes; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } SPAN.GramE { mso-style-name: ""; mso-gram-e: yes } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US style="tab-interval: .5in" vLink=purple = link=blue> <DIV>David Anderson - </DIV> <DIV>Apologies if my original question sounded at all terse; didn't = think about it until I saw it in reply-mode. Please bear with me if you've = already covered this, as I'm sure I've probably missed some bits of this conversation in places until recently. When you say "15 = seconds" - could you go into more detail? IE, are you listening for 15 seconds to = the unison each time you're moving the pin until it's in place, or is the 15 = seconds the final "test" listen? I've been thinking about this ever since I read = it while I'm on the job. When I started tuning, I had the original goal set = by my mentor/employer to get my time down to an hour every tuning, as we were contracted with a school and often the only opportunity to tune a piano = was in the hour-long gap between classes. So, I've had to mathematically = section out my tunings at times, in fractions of an hour. If your 15-second method = takes you an hour and a half (which is my average "comfortable and pretty" tuning = time now, because I *can* take that option), how long do your unisons take you, = octaves, temperament, etc.? I raise this question out of curiosity to anyone and = everyone reading this. I've actually sat there with a watch and timed my unisons, = and I can get about 3 trichord *notes* (five to six unisons) done in = a minute, on a really good day. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Andre (if you catch this!) - </DIV> <DIV>Am encouraged to hear of your tuning technique (where you explained you = pull with your body weight and actually *feel* the pin turning rather than "jerk" = or "bump" tuning). This is typically what I do, although I am far from = mastering a non-hard-strike-test-blow technique! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>David Love - </DIV> <DIV>Regarding your comments below, that first few seconds I think = is more easily described by what an even-slightly-out-of-tune unison sounds = like. To me, there is always an odd twang at the attack of the note, even when the = unison is just barely phasing. When it's perfectly clean - there's nothing but = pure tone there. On a *good* piano, that is! ;)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am really getting into all of the feedback on this discussion! Already my = bass has taken on a new quality and consistency, as I've picked up others' = explanations and descriptions of bass tuning, and this whole topic of unison hearing = and pin-turning-and-setting techniques is great. I'll admit I haven't been = so good about reading books on tuning, but even with what I have read, it's = still very beneficial to get so many opinions and descriptions real-time! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anyone want to open the floor for discussion on high treble???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again,</DIV> <DIV>ilex </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:57 PM To: = 'Pianotech' Subject: RE: How we hear </DIV> <DIV class=Section1> Trying to = listening out 15 seconds I think is excessive and unnecessary.  First of all, most of the = piano won’t give you 15 seconds of usable sustain.  Second, it makes the job take too long.  Third, if there is any = benefit of listening beyond, say, 5 seconds is so negligible as to probably not = even be measurable.   A dead on unison will have a = specific characteristic that will be evident within the first few (3-5) = seconds.  I can only describe the sound = as one of the tone closing up or folding up as the attack envelope = dissipates.  In the past it has sometimes = been referred to as “tune the unisons dead”.  You can hear this right away.  The other issue is when you should actually take the time to = check your unisons by hanging onto the note for an extended period of time.  I would say that only in the = final phase of checking should that be done.  I go through and tune unisons as I go, listening beyond the = attack for maybe 1-3 seconds depending on what section of the piano I am in.  In the final phase, which is = really just a final check of each unison, I go = through each note one at a time and allow the note to sustain for maybe 5 seconds = in the lower part of the piano and somewhat less in the upper part of the = piano. Overall, I do this final test with a fairly soft touch (p) and listen = for this folding up following the attack.  If I hear the unison opening up I mute first one side then the = other and compare to determine which side is out.  If both sides are equally = out then I mute the center string and if the outer strings are clean it tells me = that the center string has probably moved. If I think the center string may = have moved, I go back and double check the interval tuning on that note.   At the very upper end of the = piano I am hitting the note probably every 1 second or so with a soft touch and = listening to the character of the unison rather than trying to detect a = “phase”.  = <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> David Love <st1:PersonName>davidlovepianos@comcast.net</st1:PersonName> <o:p></o:p></DIV> -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of ilex cameron ross Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 = 7:07 PM To: <st1:PersonName>Pianotech</st1:PersonName> Subject: RE: How we hear to Jeneetah <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> So, with this 15 second rule, how long does it usually take you to tune a piano?<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> just curious,<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> ilex<o:p></o:p></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; = PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; = PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf Of David = Andersen Sent: Tuesday, October 26, = 2004 9:45 PM To: Pianotech Subject: Re: How we hear to Jeneetah<o:p></o:p> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> Hi, Maybe you should keep on making soft blows, but try to hit the key = quickly, without listening to the note during 15 sec like you said. That = way you'll be able to hear the "attack" of the note, the first stage = of the sound that is produced. Having a clear and pure sounding attack = is very important for me, and I've never succeeded in having a clear = attack when tuning with listening to the note more than 2 or 3 seconds.<o:p></o:p></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, Quentin, but I absolutely disagree; listening to the unison all the = way out to silence is the only way that works, for me, to get the note = completely still, completely blooming and rich. Period. That said, it = really doesn’t matter, ultimately, HOW you get a piano to sound and feel = beautiful; it just matters that you CAN. Best of the day, David Andersen <o:p></o:p></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>