<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2604" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial" bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7><FONT id=rol= e_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV> <DIV> <FONT size=3> Other interesting tid bits in the rest of the post  as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    Dale</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><STRONG>Hello Dale,<BR>     Congratulations o= n the reception received for your piano there in Sacramento.  I hope someti= me I may be able to hear it myself.  I am not the least bit surprised to h= ear that your piano has had such a wonderful reception</STRONG>.  I have = just now waded through three or four hundred emails but want to make a few comm= ents interposed below.  Some will be about your piano and some regarding R= on O's frustrated post.  I certainly hope, if he is reading this, that h= e will reconsider any departure as he is a most valuable contributor to this= list, along with the other members of the group of "redesigners'.    Still, this does smack somewhat, at least= , as far as I can see,  of "see it my way or I am going to take my marbles= and go home."   I think we all have this impulse when deeply held beliefs= are challenged, which is perfectly natural, but we should try to overcome such= as it is really, in the contention of ideas and examination of the possibilit= ies that rapid progress may well lie.       <BR><BR><BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated title=mailto:Erwinspiano= @aol.com href="mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</A> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid46.632b6f54.2f439c9e@aol.com type="cite"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2604" name=GENERATOR><FONT face=Ar= ial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV> David wrote</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px soli= d"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 s= ize=2>I think there are those who when put to a rebuilding request by a<BR>customer need to try and recreate a "Steinway sound" but might wi= sh to<BR>employ what has been represented as a more reliable method than CC.  But<BR>if the RC&S method produces its own unique characteristics and is, as<BR>you say, something which certainly didn'= t sound like a Steinway, then it<BR>would be good to know whether those differences are inherent in the<BR>differences between the two methods= or simply a matter of customizing a<BR>particular design.</FONT></BLOCKQU= OTE> <DIV> Hi Dave</DIV> <DIV> <FONT size=3> >> I've been following this thread in m= y post convention fatigue.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   I'd like to speak to this. I build rib crowned boards with some panel compression support as well. These typically have slightly taller ribs & less wide than the original.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  I also have some compression in the panel. I typically dry to no less than 5.5% emc & no more than 6%. </FONT></D= IV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  I like this range for the results I'm getting= & regional climate conditions. It's not excessive by any means . I believe= for my ears I like the sounds of designs that retain some compression. I Use sitka spruce panels, <U>which Steinway does= </U> & some diaphramizing <U>which they also do</U>. The panels are <U>similar in thickness</U> but on the thinner side. I press in a dished= caul <U>as they do</U>. I use the <U>same </U><EM>scales</EM> with minor alterations. & Yes I like the tri-chord sound in Ds. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   I use primarily white Spruce ribs on th= e bottom and sometimes some Sitka in the top treble(s) ie. Bs & Ds. Wh= ich they Don't.  I no longer use sugar pine except in some instances or= in smaller pianos. <STRONG>Which they still do in</STRONG> <STRONG>ALL models.</STRONG> I can hear the difference between a board ribbed with s= ugar pine & one with spruce.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  I market what I call a "variable radius sound= board" crown which means the ribs are cut with increasingly steeper radius= going into the treble & many folks  on this list & off do this</FONT>. <FONT size=3>Most of this is not news & many use this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  My point is that all our bellied  p= ianos sound to me like some of the best Steinways </FONT><FONT size=3> I've heard even though they are built in this non traditi= onal way. I have fewer Killer octave problems & better balance of registe= rs or as good as the very best C.C. design at least . This point is the sam= e as what others are saying ,The methods are most reliable & predictable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  <STRONG>My point is,finally.</STRONG> To me T= hese pianos aren't some derivation of the Steinway sound but the <U>best= qualities of the Steinway sound</U>. Great sustain,even thru the breaks & treble areas, rich tone color, & power which isn't driven to distortion & FFF levels.</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>This is ver= y nice to hear and, personally,  judging from your comments made over the ye= ars regarding sound I have always  had the expectation that your pianos w= ould sound great and am not at all surprised to see such results obtained as I = said above.    I have similar, although perhaps slightly differing, expectations for the others in the redesigner crowd, some contributing her= e regularly and some not.<BR>       However, generally i= t has not been you urging the view that  anything but the latest creati= on of some design methodology was the only acceptable result out there, but s= uch a view has been urged carrying with it the not too subtle, insidious, implication that people elsewhere were poor, deceived fools, for liking wh= at they like.  Some have, and at one time this list blatantly operated t= his way which was most unfortunate, in my opinion.    I am well= aware of the sacrifice of time, hence money and the draining emotional str= ain involved in moving contrarily to established norms, for example, the Stein= way or Yamaha juggernaut, and respect this, and, also, very much  the efforts, as I have always said, of those trying to produce pianos differin= g in various ways.<BR>Why would they try to produce anything but the best produ= ct they could achieve given the circumstances?  All know this must be th= e case.   Yet with any contrary view one is always disheartened by what= seems to be a kind of badgering and supercilious dismissal of any other perspective  on the part of some of this group, not necessarily you, especially when this seems to be associated with events which, in one's ow= n experience, are different, for example the public appreciation for Steinwa= y, whether warranted or not,  which has just been the immediate source o= f another dustup here on the list.   <BR>     = I find it pointless to argue back and forth on some dispute, especially, as = I once tried on a certain set of principles, at the cost of a considerable w= aste of time and productive energy, as it is not likely any minds will be chang= ed here.  As I have said before, here are only words and the experience = of hearing or playing a particular instrument is likely to be the only way th= at individual minds will undergo suasion one way or the other.   So, congratulations again, on your results.  <BR>     Even= though he has been upbraided by a number of posters for what some would ca= ll such bantering,   I think Richard Brekne makes a valid point.  I= t does take two to tango.  One can't, or at least shouldn't, dismiss aw= ay relevant facts, even if inconvenient  and the status of Steinway is b= y no means simply the result only of marketing PR.<BR>     Many times I disagree with the bases of some claims made by some of the redesig= ner crowd:  in my opinion, they  could proceed possibly more expedio= usly if they would get, for example, some of the underlying physics and history= straight, at least from my point of  view, and from that of, perhaps,= others.  Still I certainly respect the efforts that come from this sc= hool of thought wholeheartedly.   The latest discussion on simple wav= e theory, to take but one instance,  is another, among the many, exampl= es of the facts of some of the most elemental, fundamental aspects of physics= seemingly disregarded, misunderstood, or,  unknown.   How c= an it be expected then to be otherwise than that substantial contention would= then  flow from such types of things?<BR>     I live i= n an area and, a city particularly,  overrun by trembling, vaunting cultur= e snobs who buy their "culture" in the "Cultural District", who are frequent= attendees at the very numerous  musical concerts and who are complete= ly taken in by the Steinway mystique.  Here, as elsewhere, at concerts i= n most venues, they listen frequently to instruments at the same time both clangy, dull and uneven,  no doubt inferior to the same instrument ha= d it employed even the simple remedy of using a merely adequate hammer, and stu= mble over themselves to scream and applaud after each recital. Yet, underneath these defects, especially from seats in the hall, there is still a great sound, or at least musically acceptable one, although certainly capable of= much improvement in my mind.  I think Richards point was that it is t= his, as well as the PR hype, they respond to and to deny this, in my mind, is t= o miscontrue the obvious.  <BR>     Nevertheless, t= o chronically lay at the feet of the substantial marketing bull and PR machi= ne of this company the onus of impeding the development of the industry, and attributing "stagnation" to it, is not factual, in my opinion.  If anything, it should be attributed to the ignorance and superficiality of t= he consumer.  However, they may just like the sound, as do I on most of these intruments.  This is not to say it cannot be better.  I ha= ve no doubt it could and, indeed, has been.       <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid46.632b6f54.2f439c9e@aol.com type="cite"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  I have no problem or difficulty selling my cl= ients on these modern features. When they hear it they get it. NO client has e= ver said no I don't want you to do that & none ever said it didn't sound= like a Steinway.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3> Ask any one who heard My D (at the PTG Cal Sta= te) last weekend if they heard a Steinway Sound. Or the Concert artist who performed Gershwin ,who stopped before the finale of Rhapsody in blue To= State what an Amazing piano this was & because of it he was performi= ng his uncut version. It was a great experience for me personally &amp= ; I was gratified to have many enthusiastic words of support from some other= rebuilders, Technicians & friends.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    I thank them all with mutual respect & support</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Dale Erwin  <BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>Once again, I want to say how I appreciate these kinds of posts, coming, as I said once before, from the v= oice of experience and giving us the benefit of it, as does Ron O, with his ver= y insightful posts on a generality of subjects and, particularly, the wonderfully innovative, I-rib soundboard he has produced.   Simi= lar kudos to Ron N,  Dell Fandrich and Terry Falwell for their efforts bu= t we (meaning the non-redesigner crowd) still have to reserve the right to expr= ess our own opinions, even if arising from different experiences and perspectives.  <BR>Regards, Robin Hufford<BR>think Sarah pointed out = what might be some<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid46.632b6f54.2f439c9e@aol.com type="cite"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px soli= d"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>considerations in those differences.  I can't address th= ose issues with<BR>any real knowledge as I am not an engineer and lack adequate experience.<BR>But I can hear differences between different t= ypes of pianos and I am<BR>interested in exploring the topic further even i= f it is only in a<BR>speculative manner.  <BR><BR>David Love<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated title=mailto:davidlovepianos@comcas= t.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@comcast.net">davidlovepianos@comcast.ne= t</A> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 family="SANSSERIF" ptsize= ="10">Erwins Pianos Restorations <BR>4721 Parker Rd.<BR>Modesto, Ca 95357<BR>209-577-8397<BR>Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales<BR><= A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated title=http://www.erwinspiano.com/ href="http://www.erwinspiano.com/">www.Erwinspiano.com</A></FONT></DIV= ></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>