<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>OK, after Andre's reply my question still remains. = </DIV> <DIV>Suppose I (first) play even, soft-though-firm, blows, say three = or four of them while tuning one of the strings of the unison and listening with = the core of my being. Then (second), to settle the pin, I strike a very hard = staccato blow but I do not "listen" to it -- = its function is purely to equalize tension across the friction points and to = zero out any torque of the tuning pin. Finally (third), I play soft/firm = again and listen to the resulting unison. If it is not satisfactory, I repeat = the three steps, otherwise I go on to the next string.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does step 2 -- the very hard staccato blow -- damage the beauty = of the unison? Is this a bad habit that should not be taught to new tuners?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the very hard staccato blow is only necessary when the = string has been moved more than a very little bit?</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf Of = antares Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:37 AM To: = Pianotech Subject: Re: Soft blows (was How we hear) or hard = blows. </DIV>Just a few things here : First of all, I tried to tell here that when we = strike a note very hard, the emphasis lies on the higher partials. I have = tried this out on my ETD partial analysis, and indeed it shows that the higher = partials are more present with this hard blow. This causes us to listen to = strings in a different way and the result we may find in the unisons : hitting = the strings with a not so hard blow will result in a more coarse, more = rich sound. Hitting the strings very hard will result in a unison which = sounds thin, rather short in length and unsatisfactory. Basically we can = hear a real difference if we hit VERY hard, like what concert tuners do = daily, or just less hard but still in a firm manner. The last one requires a = very good tuning technique and it definitely requires from the tuner to put = his hammer ALWAYS into the direction of the tail in the very first place. second : we should not confuse hard or soft blows with = the way we listen to, and perceive, piano sounds. A hard or softer blow = literally defines - more or less - the presence of higher or lower overtones. The way we perceive piano sounds, and the way we choose = to enrich and power our unisons defines the difference between piano = tuners in general. The example I gave here of a technician working on a = beautiful concert grand, who made ugly (to my ears!) unisons, shows that indeed = your unison is not necessarily my unison. After my initial ear = opening experience, I often experimented with colleagues on the very same = instrument, just to find out whether their 'tone' was different from mine, and = indeed, the unisons I re-tuned sounded completely different. Lastly : to = those who tried out the hard versus soft blow but had no result, I say this = : The best 'place' on a piano to try this out, is in the first treble = section, just next (on right of) to the wound bass strings. This section is = usually very sonorous and rich sounding. Just take one unison and re-rune it, = but this time with tremendous blows, as if your life depends on it, just like = the professional life of a concert tuner who depends on his rock steady = unisons ok? If you do this, you will clearly hear a difference between this = one unison and the adjacent unisons. It is my personal experience, that = tuning technique is far more important than being able to make the most = refined temperament. It is for that reason only that in one of the very = best Piano Academies (Hamamatsu) in the world, the young students learn to master = tuning technique first by doing pitch raise and pitch lowering ALL DAY long = for three Months (wow), and with the aid of a tuning machine. The result of = EVERY tuning is scribbled on a chalk board in the central hall, for everybody to = see, openly or sneakily. Showing their bad marks drives the students to the = edge of their abilities, and this usually results in already having quite a = decent tuning technique after those three Months. The next course is = learning about temperament, but this time without machines, and after one year, = they are often just as good (or much better even) than a tuner from our = hemisphere who has already worked quite a number of years. That's one of the = main reasons, why I, after having fought with piano's for the better part = of my professional life, put the emphasis on technique, and please with the = aid of one of the best ETD's. I can concentrate fully on technique, and on = making 'tone'. BTW.... If someone here prefers to not use an ETD, than I = have no objections to that at all. How could I? and why should I? It is = everybody's personal choice, and I truly understand the love and = dedication of making a very beautiful aural tuning. I have had more than my = share, that's why I choose for what I chose. André Oorebeek On 26-okt-04, at 18:26, = jason kanter wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param = 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>One of the very first basics we learn is that we must set the pin with a = firm blow to equalize the string tension across the friction points. How = does this relate to the current discussion of using rather soft blows to = tune unisons? I *imagine* that you tune with soft blows, then settle the = pin with a hard blow, then listen again with soft blow to ensure the tuning = has not moved? But the hard blow has likely changed the tuning, so ... do = you use soft blows while raising the pitch, then lowering it to a smidgeon = sharp, then apply a firm blow to settle the string into exactly the right = spot? If we avoid hard blows entirely, surely the piano will be immediately = put out of tune by the = pianist?<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily>   <?fontfamily><?pa= ram Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>Puzzled in Seattle<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>| |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |  <?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>Jason Kanter . piano tuning regulation repair<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?color><?param = 0000,0000,EEEE><?smaller>jkanter@rollingball.com<?/smaller><?/color><?col= or><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller> . cell 425 830 = 1561<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>serving the eastside and the san = juans<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?smaller>-----Original = Message-----<?/smaller> <?smaller>From:<?/smaller><?smaller> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On = Behalf Of Quentin = Codevelle<?/smaller> <?smaller>Sent:<?/smaller><?smaller> = Monday, October 25, 2004 9:32 = PM<?/smaller> <?smaller>To:<?/smaller><?smaller> = pianotech<?/smaller> <?smaller>Subject:<?/smaller><?smaller> = How we hear to Jeneetah<?/smaller> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>Hi,<?/smaller><?/fontfamily>   <?fontfamily><?= param Arial><?smaller>Maybe you should keep on making soft blows, but try to hit the key = quickly, without listening to the note during 15 sec like you = said.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>That way you'll be able to hear the "attack" of the note, the first stage = of the sound that is = produced.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>Having a clear and pure sounding attack is very important for me, and I've = never succeeded in having a clear attack when tuning with listening to the = note more than 2 or 3 = seconds.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily>   <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>For me, when I tune, when my attack is clear, the rest is also, and my = unisson has enough "length" most of = times.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>I need much concentration right now to make clean unissons on every = note with this technique, that means it takes some time to have a good = eveness.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>But since the beginning, you should hear a difference, YOUR sound = will be turning from black to = white.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily>   <?fontfamily><?param = Arial><?smaller>Andre?<?/smaller><?/fontfamily>   <?fontfamily= ><?param = Arial><?smaller>Quentin.<?/smaller><?/fontfamily> </BLOCKQUOTE>fri= endly greetings from André Oorebeek "where Music is, = no harm can be" </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>