<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hi Phil First off, lets keep our shirts on here and not assume either is getting impatient with each other ok. Your note sounds like you are making some assumptions about my attidude, and I assure you they are as friendly and lighthearted in spirit as can be. Secondly... let me address two points.  First the immediate one below.  I asked you whether you are taking this position about side bearing increasing because no one has shown it to be true, therefor its an assumption, and one I dont buy into. Why ?? because the side deflection of the string simply does not change with dimensional changes in the bridge wood due to climate changes.  This sounds strange..?  Perhaps because one thinks that as the bridge suface grows they are pushing the strings higher on the pins and thus more sideways bearings ? But if you stop to think about things for a second one must see that it is the position of the bridge pin holes themselves that define the sideways deflection.  And they do not move sideways because of dimensional changes in the wood.   As the bridge expands  the angled bridge pin holes will tend to straighten out a bit, lessening if anything the actual angle of the bridge pins.  Not to mention that the pins themselves are being pushed upwards as it is claimed. So in actuality, you have bridge pin holes that do not change their relative position to each other... so no way of increasing side bearing there,...  and a stress on the pins themselves that go in the direction of lessinging their angle...   which if anything would decrease side bearing. ------------------- <pre>>Phil, > >So.. you are taking the position that upward pressure by the bridge >surface simply increases sidebearing and there by more friction, and >that the increased upward pressure by the bridge on the string is >more then countered by that increased friction ? Phil responds As the bridge pushes the string further up the pin then the sidebearing angle increases and static friction should increase accordingly. It's probably not significant. Ron mentioned an .011 inch rise of bridge relative to pin. I haven't run any numbers to indicate what the increase in sidebearing would be for that amount of rise, and I probably won't, since you don't seem to like numbers. -------------------------- I love numbers !! But this is the kind of thing I mean when I caution against getting too wrapped  up in looking at this from simply a numbers point of view.  If one really sets about trying to prove oneself wrong, as per the scientific methodology you described so well and I subscribe to 100 %, then one has to look for these kinds of errors in ones own  basic assumptions. And to do that one has to be open for the possiblity that such errors can indeed occur.  Reading your many fine posts I know you to be a person who is very capable questioning yourself in this regard, just so you dont get the idea I am suggesting otherwise to your person :) In this case it is the assumption that sidebearing increases as the bridge sufaces presses upwards as humidity increases. So... as to the brass experiment.  It simply isolates the possibilty for  crushed bridge surface syndrom out of the question, and if one still finds strings <<climb>> the pins by subjecting the piano to the same kind of conditions and use it otherwise experiences... (and they do indeed climb)  then the crushed notch theory doesnt hold by virtue of the fact that the condition can exist despite an obviously non crushed surface. Pictures... grin... yes this would do a lot of good.  I'd get accused of faking them by those who have already decided whats going on.  Those same used about 2 minutes to discount Dons video without even having seen it.  Besides... we all do these kinds of things for ourselves yes ?? I'm perfectly content to put my bit out and let whomever check out what they want to and draw their own conclusions. One final note. The whole line of reasoning Ron N lays out lives and dies upon the existance of negative bearing when the string is off the cap. Alls one has to do is find a case of strings off the surface of the bridge while at the same time finding plenty of positive bearing. This is easy to find. New piano prep work shows this as conclusively as one could ever ask. As far as I can see, Ron has simply described one of the many things that can happen to a piano as it ages. But this does not amount to far reaching grounds for claiming the uselessness of string seating. Not by any means. Cheers RicB </pre> </body> </html>